Well, since Ed won't comment on Erica's comment about "his followers" - I will.

Erica, to start off a post with an insulting comment like that pretty much insures that someone like myself won't post in it. And I've handled more canine aggression than virtually anyone else on this board. I give out a lot of advice, and I get a fair amount of PM's with thanks from people - I'm helpful by nature. But when a posters starts off the post with a comment like yours? I hope you handle dogs better than you handle people. :rolleyes:

I have to commend you, Ed. It takes a pretty big man to accept an insult and still offer to help a person with their problems.

Rate Member Icon 1 posted 03-20-2005 06:12 PM Profile for Dan Oas Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote In original post, a stray was among them, and so
she chased it off and returned to find the jack dead, but isn't assuming her 4 did it and condemning the OE to death sort of unfair?
what if the stray was evil, hammered the jack ?

However the stray got in might be the only problem needs fixin, assuming she was content with her role
in this pack before.

And why not try giving the OE to someone else?
He might be so grateful to be outa there, he might
mellow out! I mean there's gotta be someone out there who's an OE nutjob, and misses the legendary
grumpiness of the one that died last year somehwere? Or off with his head, whatever.

Originally posted by Erica Romero:
On the 16th, as I was returning home, I noticed a stray large male dog near my pack. These dogs were out in the yard together while you weren't home?

Wow. I thought I would really be hammered. I was braced for it! But everyone was very VERY helpful.

Mr. Frawley. You are correct. I cannot handle this dog, and I will quit trying. He is too much for me. I am in the process of building kennels right now for everyone else. However, I think I am going to euthanize the OE. And as far as the cutting of the air, I'll admit, it was out of mostly anger (after he had torn open my hand), and trying to gain control again because he was trying to grab ahold of me. I have never had to do that before on any of my dogs--this dog is just too much.

But, one day, I want to be a kick butt handler/owner. But as Theresa put it, I learned a tragic lesson. It put me back into perspective.

But as far as the PSD biting...I never got stitches or severely bitten. Mostly grabs (which did significantly bruise), a couple of punctures. And they were always after a correction. That is bad? Isn't that the dog just getting upset that I corrected him, and wasn't really established as alpha yet? As far as doing bitework, the dog is going to fairly listen because he wants to bite and play, and you are the one technically allowing him to proceed. It was just when I corrected him is when he reacted. And part of it was probably my fault. He was and still is my first dog.

But please tell me otherwise. They are going to retire my mal pretty quickly. More so now that he strained his cruciat ligament in his knee during training yesterday. I want to do everything better with my second dog.

Again, thank you for all the outstanding (and kind) posts. Although sometimes I don't agree with everything on this forum, I can't deny the knowledge here. That is why I posted. Thanks.

Hank--Unfortunately, yes. I have learned that lesson. It is being remedied.

Will. My apologies. I did not mean it as hateful. Honestly. It does sound that way (after I re-read it), and I apologize for that. How I meant it is that this forums regulars are all %100 for Mr. Frawley, and I expect that--but I don't agree with everything Mr. Frawley says. That is all. I KNOW for a fact that having a "pack" is frowned upon in this forum that is based off of Frawley's training. Did I explain it ok? Does that make sense? That is all I was trying to say, and not be hateful.

I was pretty much expecting to be hammered, and actually I wasn't, including a post from Mr. Frawley. I have seen a lot of different dogs from different agencies and kennels being a handler. What I have seen most between trainers (and kennels) that that no one gets along!! Why not? I bet every trainer (well, the reputable ones) have at least ONE good thing in their program, right?

Me? I have an Adlerhorst dog. I love him. Great dog. But the owner, well, I don't agree with everything he trains as well. But then again, he is my first, and I don't know squat--so I am trying to take something from everyone that knows what they are doing, and apply it. Just like in my FTO program.

So, I apologize to everyone I offended. It was not intended as an insult, but more as a statement, because I already knew it was frowned upon.

Erica wrote: But as far as the PSD biting...I never got stitches or severely bitten. Mostly grabs (which did significantly bruise), a couple of punctures. And they were always after a correction. That is bad?

LC: I think so.

Erica wrote: Isn't that the dog just getting upset that I corrected him, and wasn't really established as alpha yet?

LC: I don't think so. Especially since it's continuing for a year.

Erica wrote: It was just when I corrected him is when he reacted. And part of it was probably my fault.

LC: This sounds like protest biting. The dog thinks that the correction is too hard for the infraction he committed and he's letting you know. Basically it's a warning that if you keep it up your dog is going to kick your ass. In any case, it shouldn't be happening, no matter how slight the bruise or the puncture.

Quote from Erica:
"How I meant it is that this forums regulars are all %100 for Mr. Frawley, and I expect that--
but I don't agree with everything Mr. Frawley says."

Erica, I am not sure how you can speak for all "this forums regulars" but very briefly, here is my point
of view: dog training, like most things in life, is largely based on common sense. Common
sense tells me that people (like Ed Frawley and many other members of this web board)
who have been involved with dogs and dog training for an extended period of time
will be able to help me by their experience. It is unlikely that any two people will ever
agree 100% of the time on anything, including dog training, so I think you are incorrect in your statement above.

One thing we should all be able to agree on is exercising good judgement when dealing with our dogs --
and this tells me that it is a bad idea to leave this many dogs together unsupervised, as you discovered.

Erica-hopefully you learned more about people here than you did about dogs or least as much. Look how much help you got when your first words used included biased and followers. I don't think most people here are Ed Frawley followers or apologist. Ed is a big boy who can stand up for himself. Alot of people here, ED, myself..maybe yourself are biased about certain things when it comes to something as dear to us as our dogs. I think most people here like myself have never purchased a dog from Ed and don't have plans to. Ed even though sells dogs and training equipment etc runs this board and allows us to discuss where we buy dogs, dogs we like etc etc and same for equipment. Most of these discussions don't involve Ed's products but this board is a place to trade information and opinions. Not just Ed Frawley opinions or products. Same for training methods. Nobody probabley offers a better library of training books and video's than Ed does. And look at them...they all aren't his and the books present different opinions and views just like this board does. Its a great place to come and talk K9 whether you own Leerburg dogs or strictly Czech dogs like me or poodles...we are all welcome. And if people disagree with you sometimes its not a sign you aren't welcome here..chances are next time you need help the same people who disagreed with you will be the ones to help you.
I'm sorry for your dog loss....dogs are like kids...you can't let your 3 year old play unsupervised with a 15 year old who just got out of juvenile detention for 10th time. Bad things will happen. I don't believe in the "pack" thing but it has nothing to do with following Ed...it just makes sense to me via my above example. I do though almost daily let dogs play together 1 male and 1 female-similar age and size and no behavior problems and well trained and titled dogs. I also will let puppies run with the big dogs to socialize and learn the ropes under my supervision. But as I'm sure you know if dogs spend too much time alone together without you...new hierarchy forms as you found out the hard way. Sadly although I am not a Frawley follower..I do agree with Ed...I would put down the OE for the betterment of everyone including dogs. Best Wishes-Derek