Ken, I agree with Ellis on the e-collar use and soft dogs. I just meant that without excellent guidance they can be one of the most abused tools out there.

Hopefully you can get better answers here then I gave you but weak nerved dogs are something I personally can't/wont work with. That's a fault of mine only but I stand by my thinking that it shouldn't be used as a service dog. There is no way of knowing if you situation would become unstable or confusing to the dog and that's where the dog with solid nerves comes in.
Again, hopefully I'm wrong because there are folks here at LB that can offer excellent advice for you.
Ideally the cause of the issues the pup is going through can be discovered and controlled.

I know so little that I hate to even comment---I have raised only one really "difficult" dog, the one that led me to this site.

Perhaps your pup isn't so much fearful as he is confused about his role. Could it be that sitting on your lap, sitting up with you, even on top of you, has made him think that he is a big shot who might be able to "get away" with biting?

I mean, he's a dog who is bred to "boss" with his teeth, that's what great herding dogs do. "Cornered" by stock, they bite to make the pressure, the cow, "back off". At the vet, they "cornered him", held him down and he responded in a herding dog way, really in a way just showing his mettle, his genetic desire to use his teeth to get his way.

When my ACDx started doing this seriously, and it was really VERY bad at right about the same age as your pup, Connie gave me a ton of advice. I had to completely ignore him for a week. He received 0 pets, 0 training, 0 attention. He had to "suck up" for everything. NILIF to the max.
NO getting "up" on furniture, NO going on me---because he's little, I had been having him on my lap, and he would snap if he decided he'd had enough, snap at my face. He'd also snap at my hands if I tried to put on his leash. Snap with rage and growling. If I got mad at him he just got worse, would fly into a rage.

I wish that Connie would PM you. I think she's got the answer.

PS my guy is great now --- but he has his limitations. He could NEVER be a loving service dog, though. Too much "petting" and he wants to bite, still.

PS- I think the peeing is just an expression of the seriousness of his desire to make what ever is happening "stop". It's a message, also, to whomever is pressuring, saying, I think " I'm acting mad, with this growling and biting, but see by this pee, I'm ready to give up....and in addition, I'm really still just a baby, so don't kill me......"

Are these regular vet visits and handling expected to continue for awhile or will he have surgery and pretty much be done with them?

I'd be doing a NILIF bootcamp to re-establish the terms of the relationship.

With my shy boy I had to go back several steps after he needed vet care for an injury. The forced handling was not on the terms he was used to and caused some regression to earlier avoidance/aggression but he recovered from it pretty quickly once things were back to normal.

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

He had no fear biting or pissing at all until he had to be held down on his side at vets. I would assume fear as being held down against your will would not be pleasant.

Ken

This was the first time he attempted to bite?

Who was holding him down, you or the Vet/Tech?

What was the reaction to the situation? Was the hold released?

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

In no particular order--as far as weak nerves

I let them take him from the room, do what they need and let them bring him back. When he sees me he gets treats after sitting. So far every time he has been happy, head up, wiggling when he sees me.The snapping occurs later. Again, he NEVER snapped at me or anyone else, nor did he piss submissively until the first vet appt.(held down for X rays)Vet said he snarled and tried to bite during that time and peed on the table.
would not have considered him to be a submissive puppy at all prior tho that.He never showed any signs of fear--in fact is rather bold and gets into puppy trouble because of it. good in car,
not a barker really,
does not flinch at any loud noise including gunshots or a stack of pots and pans dropped near him.
He has shown no fear of anything that i can think of in fact, noise, motion, new objects.


Thanks

I missed this section, so no real way of knowing what transpired.

Congrats on the new pup Ken. Sounds like you've done an incredible amount of work with him.

He's very young yet and you probably know about stages they go thru (commonly called fear). They usually just appear a little more leery about things that seemed perfectly fine before but they can be quite impressionable thru these times.

The vet incident does sound quite traumatic. They say it's a simple procedure, and for them perhaps, but for a pup that has not been exposed to the strangers, the smells, the cold steel and the way they twist and contort his body, let alone not let him move while they're doing it, yes, it could cause quite an upset.

A good lesson in submission too, but not the way I'd want to teach it. The vets can't be faulted though, their time is money. Some dogs just need a little more patience and a bit of a different approach.

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

Now my nice little guy is fear biting and submissively urinating. The biting is sporadic, just depends on what--i don't know, no same thing triggers it. One time he will be on my lap and i readjust my position and he goes for my face, the next time it may be me bending down to put on his leash, next time touching his side.We then can go through a few days and no problems at all.

From what you've said, anyone of these things could have stemmed from these vet visits.

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

All the vets seem to think he should be fine after this so it is just a roll of the dice whether all will be fine--physically and mentally.

I would tend to agree with this also, however this isn't just one set of x-rays. It's been going on a few times now in his short little life.

Personally, I would opt for full sedation the next time. And not that Ace stuff. Commonly known as Promace or Acepromazine, not with a fearful puppy like that. They used a Midazolam mix on my shepherd when he had to have some fairly invasive x-rays. Couldn't have been better. He quickly fell asleep in my arms and woke up staring at my mug.

It may cost a bit more but you don't want to further compound this fear. One more time could be just enough to imprint it. Or not, but you're seeing some side effects now.

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

What i need now, the basis of my post, are a couple of suggestions--how do i respond to him if/when he snaps at me? This is not yet out of control, he has only done it three or four times but it seems wise to me to have a plan now, not later. Too harsh a verbal command scares him now and he pees. I will not touch him (physical "correction") so i don't need the old, pinch the lips to teeth routine i hear from old guys.Today i just moved my hand quickly and shuffled him off of my lap, ignored him.

It sounds like the vets were really good at the restraining procedure. Your shifting movement with him on your lap (shifting him without his doing it), the hands touching his side, the bending over his head. All things he was probably exposed to in that fearful state (on more than one occasion). It all seems relative. Unfortunately, he's now learning to use his mouth to fend off these "assaults".

You are not the vet though and he needs to know that the biting won't get him anywhere. As you've been doing, at least until this surgery is over, I'd continue to ignore it and work right thru it if possible.

Does he have a need to be on your lap? If not, I'd leave him on the ground. The hands on his side, I'd be marking that. Something he should be accepting but needs to learn to trust again. Same with the leash. Get him in the best position possible, click the snap a few times so he knows what's coming and mark. Let him know well in advance what to expect.

As his confidence in your relationship grows the submissive peeing should take care of itself.

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

He is teething of course, just lost both of his lower canines, enough to make him grumpy

All this and the poor little guy is teething too. Well didn't he just get wacked with the "Welcome to the World" stick. Sounds like he's in the right hands.

Again, congrats. A few struggles out of the gate but sounds like you're in it for the long run. The basis of some great relationships.

I'd be interested to hear more about how you got him. Did you purchase him? Did this breeder know about the heart defect? Was she intending to cull him? Not that there's anything wrong with that (or right, don't really have an opinion on that). Being smaller, the runt type of thing, they can get exposed to different types of attention.

And don't answer any of these questions if they are at all invasive or none of my business, just sounds like an interesting situation and was curious about his life so far.

Thanks to everyone. Vet trip today was uneventful, only a little pee when they held him down for echo. No, i have never been around him when the vets, techs do their thing, i don't see any reason for him to associate me with those events.
Tammy--correct, i was not with him so no way of knowing who did what, held too hard or "corrected" for squirming, etc. i do trust my vet, she is a personal friend and is going the whole distance with me on this, raising all the money needed for surgery so until i learn differently, all was normal procedure.
I already decided at the end of last night to go back to engagement only for a week, see how it goes, decide on next step then. As it is, i work on engagement every day anyway, delayed his training in fact because of that, rather immature due to the heart issues. Engagement is per Leerburg/Ellis teaching plus a few things thrown in from local trainers.
Yes, that was the first time he had ever been held down, had to happen again at a specialist a week and a half later. His apprehension/fear, whatever anyone prefers to call it had subsided greatly before that next visit, bite attempts, peeing back again after the second trip. Total times trying to bite or at least bluff me is four times when i count back, not including directing at vet/techs.Today's visit was at university, all fine, fourth year student was calm, quiet and deliberate, allowed him to check her out. (i explained the issues before the exam began)Vet was the same temperament. When pup came back into the room he rushed to me for treats, sat before he got any,was happy, head up,wiggly bum, no stress in his expression. I put him in a down and he stayed at my feet, went to sleep for the forty five minute consultation.
For now i am going to assume that he is much more resilient that i give him credit for, will work on engagement even more while backing up with training. Until i can raise enough money for the surgery, no appointments aside from pleasant visits.
Cathy--after the surgery he will be good to go so this type of stress will subside greatly.
Again, thanks everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated.If anything of note comes up, good or bad, is it proper for me to post an update in a month or so?
Regards, ken

Do you know what his condition is, what the surgery is?