"Those were not even remotely pitbulls, they were much closer to the classic old english pitbull."

LOL.

They're not pitbulls because they look like old pit bulls?

They look like what they are/were...pit bulldogs.

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When I look up "catch dogs", I find a history that goes back about 30 years. Not exactly the strong historic basis that I'm looking for as evidence.

Your exactly right Will because when the 1976 law made pitting illegal here was all these people stuck with combat dogs, so that was logically the next thing to do with them. The one thing Richard Stratton got right in his book was how the pitbull was created, and yes part of their make up was from catch dogs from england, but those dogs weren't pitbulls, they would soon be crossed with the bull terrier and other terrier and bull breeds, in order to create the ultimate pit dog. So you could say they have roots in catching but that was their ancestors not them. If they wanted to continue catching they already had the breed, why cross the with terrier and make them smaller, which the original pitbull rarely exceeded 35-40 pounds, so why make them smaller? for quickness? they're catching bulls, and hogs, any dog can chase them down. They wanted them small and agile for the pit, thats why.

You know Andy as someone who personally likes pitbulls even though I only have one now, and he will be the last when he dies (he's 7 now). It's much better to say, yes, I know their creative purpose, but they are far capable of more and have proved they can accomplish and be worthy of more than just pit life. Instead of finding ways to justify that the pit was not the purpose of their existance and foundation when it was.

Hmmm...so bulldogs and pitbulls are interchangable in your world?
I guess GSD owners can start claiming that GSD's were used for duck retrieving then, same idea as you're putting forth.

Sorry, but this kind of stuff ( like believing in a bogus historical basis for the breed ) is why the Pitbull crowd will never be taken seriously and self-isolate themselves from the mainstream dog owners in this country.

Their "bred for" purpose comes from their original use...hunting. Their accomplishments outside the pit came before the development of dogfighting.

You say the old dogs were "bulldogs"...is that not what a pit bulldog is? Just because the AKC labeled them APBT does not change what they are now, and always have been.

Read The Working Pit Bull.


I am not suggesting in anyway that pit bulldogs did not earn their reputation in the pit, but you cannot wave a wand and erase historical fact, that the breed has always been more than a fighter.

"and yes part of their make up comes from catch dogs from england"


You freely admit the historical use of pit bulldogs outside the pit. But you maintain their "bred for" combat stance?

Its more accurate to say that pit dogs, those used exclusively for fighting came from old bulldogs who were used for hunting and baiting, but they still retain the ability to continue the work for which they were originally created.

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You say the old dogs were "bulldogs"...is that not what a pit bulldog is? Just because the AKC labeled them APBT does not change what they are now, and always have been.

Ok, first the UKC was the first to register the pitbull NOT AKC, and AKC does NOT register APBT's they register AMStaff, the strain of pitbull that supposedly had the gameness bred out of them (and were pretty successful) they are watered down pitbulls basically. So AKC intentionally did to them what they have accidentally did to all the other breeds, LOL
The pitbull has very close lineage to the bulldog, and when they added a bit of this and that to create the ultimate fighter they changed the name to APBT because it was no longer a bulldog as was known. I still call them bulldogs because as alot of folks because I hate their name pitbull, but regardless of the word game, they are not the same as AB hell just look at them and you see the difference, but through selective breeding with varying breeds, the pitbull was created for the pit and there is no way around it.

Chris,

The AKC originally registered pit bulldogs. John Colby's dogs were amongst the first to be registered, and were in fact used as the standard. They were the ones who coined the APBT name, and were also the ones who closed their registries to APBT's after dogfighting was banned...The sought to distance themselves from registries like the ADBA who sought to perserve the fighting lines, by renaming existing dogs Am Staffs

"added a bit of this and that"

Current AKC breeds such as the Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were created from strains of pit bulldogs, not the other way around.

Andy,
I read the Working Pitbull Today.

Diane is passionate about the breed, but it sure seems a lot like she is desperately trying to only present the mostly good side of them. And her historical interpretations are not accurate regarding the origins and uses of the breed.
Carl did a lot better job with the facts in his book, brutal though it is.

And some of her book, sheesh.....like at least half of the pictures of the dogs wearing these logging chains with their thick agitation collars.
And the pictures of AKC American Staff Terriers mixed in with the pics of the APBT made for a nice confusing read.

Or the chapter titled "Dog Fighting Today". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />


One of the nicest dogs that I've had as a client was a Red Nose Pit. I would have kept him in a flash, he was a great dog and the owner did a super job with him.
But for every one like him, I can find thirty nasty ones chained up in yard owned by a gangster wannabe.
Those are the ones that people see and it's to the point that the actual majority population of pits is becoming owned by the wrong type of people. Yes, it's the owners that are the problem, but - some breeder had to sell them a dog to begin with and here we are with a problem that's not going to go away. BSL is gaining steam in more and more places and the Pitbull breeders have proven that they will not police themselves. And so society is going to do it, one way or the other.

Will,

Yes, Jessup is trying hard to portray the pit bulldog in a positive manner. Its sad that she seems to be alone in the struggle.

Your personal opinion of her book does not invalidate the accuracy of her information.