Hey Robbin,
It sounds like you got the right dog for your lifestyle and that's important. I got a West German showlines dog that's cool as hell and tons of fun and could probably get a Sch title on him. I think there's definitely room for well rounded showline gsd's in the world. As far as using Sch as a test to see if a dog will really bite or not........,
AL

Anita, sounds like you have the epitomy of what a true shepherd should be able to do. As I understand it, a true gsd is capable of living with the family and doing whatever work is required of him. Good for you!

Al, you're right. As I understand it Schutzhund may or may not be a good indicator of a dogs ability to bite in a real life situation. Most people I talked to when I was getting ready to start training Levi told me not to get my dog involved in Sch if I wanted a protection dog. I was told that in a real life situation they might not actually take the bite. It's all very interesting and there are so many different opinions. It's like I've always said...I may have different thoughts as time and experience ensue. I have owned many large breed dogs in my lifetime but this is my first true shepherd. It is going to be interesting to see how he develops over the next couple of years. Hopefully, my choice was right for my life and circumstance.

 Quote: john j. miller

This is a general reply to many posts above (just to clarify)...

I have seen Gary's male German Showline GSD work, and his protection is very serious indeed. A dog that can achieve even a SchI is a well rounded mentally and physically sound animal. I know of no other way to prove temperament and work ability.

JOhn I agree with you that there are some really good Showline in protection out there , but they all had right foundation work, pretty good handlers and had very good helpers to add..
But I disagree that a dog that achieves a schutzhund title proves that he has a great temperament and work abilities. I have seen many titled dogs come out over the past 6 years in our Club and many i wondered how in the hell did they get there titles!
I think for a dog to prove that he is a well rounded , top noch k9 , great temperament we have to see him in ALL kinds of situations.yes titles are great but that will never convince me that the dog with a title is better then a dog without.We have a few dogs in our clubs with no titles that are far superior in all phases then some with titles.
For me a dog that can be a "family dog" and then go out and work is the top dog for me...

So very true, so very true. Let me expand upon my post so that my specific point comes through. A dog that achieves a TRUE SchI is a well rounded mentally and physically sound dog. Sure, there are "midnight trials" and titles that are paid for, but a dog that can actually perform on the field, AND as Angelique mentioned in the home as well, that is the best this breed (and canine's in general for that matter) has to offer. The sport of schutzhund was developed for a reason, and I think it still holds true today, and in protection is really where "rubber meets the road". Plenty of dogs and breeds can track and perform in OB, but not a high percentage can withstand the mental and physical stress of protection.

 Quote: robbinmann

Al, you're right. As I understand it Schutzhund may or may not be a good indicator of a dogs ability to bite in a real life situation. Most people I talked to when I was getting ready to start training Levi told me not to get my dog involved in Sch if I wanted a protection dog. I was told that in a real life situation they might not actually take the bite.

I cannot understand people with this overall opinion. Yes, it is certainly true that a dog can perform well in schutzhund and even earn a SchIII without showing a lot of fight, defense, or being "civil". BUT, I have seen plenty of Sch dogs that are civil and show a ton of defense and fight on the field and I have only been in the sport for about a year now. Not only that, but if those drives are in a dog, Schutzhund training with a quality helper will certainly not take that out of the dog. Schutzhund training will actuall build those drives provided the helper is strong and knows your objectives. We do not only work the dogs in prey drive during protection at our club, our helper works to bring out and build defense when appropriate. Personally, I would NEVER want a PPD that was not titled. All that training does (if done properly)is add control, build confidence in the dog, and establish a deep bond with the handler that I feel is crucial especially with a dog that has bite training of any kind, much less a dog that's actually civil.

The reason Schutzhund was developed is not neccesarily the same as it was originally. In many peoples eyes it's become all about the trophy and not the dog (prey drive, prey drive, prey drive). In many cases I don't think your going to see a dog out there that is well rounded in the protection department. I'm sure that there are many reasons for that; however I believe like anything else in this world that people get a hold of, where there is money, power, or fame things tend to get manuipulated and morph into something less than intended. Such is the case with Schutzhund.

John, welcome home and congratulations.
Goose said to say thanks too.

Michael,

At the highest levels of the sport, I'd bet you are very right. But, what is the percentage of Sch participants that get to compete at those levels? Not very many. Personally, I want what this breed was MEANT to be... EVERYTHING. I want a dog that is just as comfortable asleep at my feet at night as it is flying around the field, or with my family. And the fact that the dog can achive that does not mean it has no defense and is not "serious". I have no desire to compete at a high level if it means I have to sacrifice any of my goals for my dog or dogs. I want a personal and family companion, a set of eyes and ears sharper than mine to watch out for my family, a sport competitor, and a guardian (if the dog is able) from my dog. After educating myself on the breed and on canines and canine behavior in general the sport is my only way to ensure I get this in my dog.

 Quote: denise hau

 Quote: gary fuqua

...pronounced, let's out, sufficient, insufficient, not-presented.

Could you translate the terminology for the newbies?

Here is a link to the USA's Seiger show rules, which describe tests for which these evaluations are given:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/regulations/sieger_show_rules.htm

In general, pronounced, sufficient, and insufficient refer to the quality of the dog's grip in the exercises.

This rating is the subject of spirited discussion...and rightly so.

Many "Sch3" dogs presented at the Seiger Shows, that I have personally seen, perform so poorly, it is not unreasonable to question the legitimacy of the working titles. We have untitled club dogs the do better bite work than some of the dogs presented. It doesn't make sense, unless people are cheating with the titles. Hence the controversy...

"Lets out" or "Does not out", refers to the release of the grip.

"Not presented" means the dog was entered in the show, but was not presented during the evaluations.

Gary

 Quote: john j. miller

Sure, there are "midnight trials"

I like that term John ...so accurate!
I myself , like and have a dog that is dual.i know he can handle a real scenario and sport too.I like that in a dog and to me it makes him a very sound one.And I agree that the Schutzhund training I put on him made him a more stable dog.When I got him he had Civil foundation and was a bit out of control, he is now after 3 years of training in Schutzhund a well rounded , stable dog.So I agree with what you are saying that a PPD dog with Schutzhund training is better off.And as of today he is not all about the sleeve at all.I like that ..
I think handlers that work there dogs in prey ONLY cause they are afraid of challenging their dogs and hiding bad nerves are bunch of wienies..