When talking about pits are gamebred lines the same as fighting lines?

 Quote: Betty Waldron

When talking about pits are gamebred lines the same as fighting lines?

Betty, you'll want to see Ed's opinion of that:

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/179336

Well, that certainly did answer my question!

My apologies, I really wasn't sure if it was the same thing.

lol - I found the APBT on the first try!

IMO, I think any properly bred, properly socialized, stable dog should be good with kids - Pit Bulls included. They are great kids' dogs. I have fostered four in the past, I loved their gentleness, their stoicism, their googlie eyes and their huge grins. Super animals, I never had any problems with them. People, on the other hand, gave me untold numbers of problems about them. 'They'll maul your kids' They'll turn on you' yadda, yadda, yadda.
So far, the only animal that has ever 'turned on me' was human.

Gotta love Pitties.

 Quote: betty waldron

Well, that certainly did answer my question!

My apologies, I really wasn't sure if it was the same thing.

No apology needed at all. I wasn't at all sure that my feelings of discomfort in that other thread were legit until I asked .... since then I've asked a lot of long-time working-dog trainers, and so far, all have said that at the very least, the term in common usage "includes" fighting, even when it doesn't specifically mean only fighting ...

And you see in that thread the skirting around done, such as "if you truly want a gamebred dog, you're not going to be able to look online. for obvious reasons, those with real gamedogs do not often have websites advertising what they have.... "

 Quote: Betty Waldron

Well, that certainly did answer my question!

My apologies, I really wasn't sure if it was the same thing.

I'm with you Betty... I didn't know this either.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

I grew up with Cockers. They were saints. To say their heads are too small for their brains is reminiscent of the old Dobe myths. I thought we'd advanced past those, but I see not. The problem with unstable dogs typically lies in breeding for pets and show, and not performance.

Now that I've thought about it some more I think it was actually the Cavalier spaniels they were talking about. I saw it on some tv special though and you know how reliable the info from those can be.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

You know as well as I do that there was a day when those ideals would have been vehemently challenged and called out in no uncertain terms, as opposed to politically pussyfooting around.

You know Jenny, when I first read this post I was infuriated, as you are justifiably so. I think someone can attest to that. I needed to calm down before I posted a “politically pussyfooting” response.

I have nothing against Michelle and think her heart is the right place, just misguided and uninformed. However her views have the potential to do some serious harm to the cause should they be widely shared. I thought lashing out would serve no purpose, my intent was to inform her that her views were not helping, in fact sending it miles backwards.

When I read her second post, I saw that nothing had changed, in fact, got my hackles up even higher. I’m not sure exactly what this board used to be like but I know that there has been quite a bit of talk about addressing issues and not attacking the person. However, I also agree that this situation needs to be “vehemently challenged”. So with that said, my response to her second post.

The issue I have with pittys and little kids is in a nutshell-Supervision-Too many stories out there about an adult thought the visiting child was safe with the home's dog..

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pit Bull breed or dogs in general. A friendly lab or golden can smother a child in seconds. Supervision and little children goes without saying … in ALL situations.

I waited for my kids to be older to rescue these breed types

Good for you. However, there are many knowledgeable, experienced dog owners that do know how to properly position newborns, toddlers and small children into leadership positions within their family pack. You need to leave this kind of rescuing to the folks that know what their doing.

They consider the kids litter mates rather than alphas and hence the problems start.

If this has been your experience, you’re not doing it right. Many adults also find themselves in inferior positions in their dog’s eyes (often lower than a litter mate) and get injured struggling to move up. This is a lack of knowledge and second rate training, again nothing to do with Pit Bulls.

people should never lose sight that they are a powerful breed and need to be ruled by a strong leader.

True strength comes from within. Regardless of whether the dog is a “Chihuahua” or a Neapolitan Mastiff, they all have “powerful” dog minds, all too willing to manipulate situations in their favor. What we never need to “lose sight of” is the fact that they are animals and all have sharp, potentially dangerous teeth, their one and only weapon of defense - they have no choice, unlike the collars, leashes and 2x4’s at our disposal.

When they get into the wrong hands-someone who doesn't train them, you have a powerful menace.

Strong leaders/trainers are able to compassionately teach dogs the appropriate ways to behave in the presence of all humans (big and small) and manipulate their actions as needed, for our purposes. Any untrained dog left to “figure it out” on their own has the potential to become a “powerful” menace. Yappy Fifi can drive their owners insane with the constant challenging of humans and other dogs. That’s some pretty powerful mental menacing.

chiuaua who would bite your face off…. Imagine if that kind of ownership was placed on a pitty? YIkES.

Just make sure you send the picture to Mr. Frawley.

Oh and I didn't mean to glomp themall together.

Well that’s great. I hope from this point forward, you’ll remove the words “Pit Bull” when you’re speaking of dogs in this manner.

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Perhaps the reason for singling out the breed is because that is the one she has experience with in fostering/rescuing?

The issue I have with German Shepherds and children is lack of supervision.

I waited for my kids to be older before I rescued this type of breed." <German Shepherd> Remember rescues are often adult dogs with an unknown history. And problems often occur after the honeymoon period when your guard is down.

German Shepherds can be a powerful dog both mentally and physically and needs good leadership.

A German Shepherd in the wrong hands without training can be a menace.

Basically her words but a different breed.

What do you guys think? If you change the breed does it still push the same buttons or does it sound more like responsible ownership?

As much as I enjoy my soapbox and didn't care for the sweeping generalizations, I didn't feel like I knew enough about Pits to comment on them.

My experience with them has been quite limited. The only Pit that I was ever really 'friends' with (Cedar) belonged to a friend of mine. He was a sweetheart of a thing AND a therapy dog. He worked primarily with children, and would wear a pack filled with little (pre-approved!) goodies for the kids on his visits. They would absolutely MAUL him, and he would greet them with a relaxed and happy tail.

He was also great with my dogs when we would mix our packs on visits. Never even saw a lifted lip from him. Even when he went blind as an older dog, his temperament never changed and he remained sweet and stable. The worst thing I could say about him really is that he peed on my chair once. Inappropriate, but forgivable.

I started hearing all the hullabaloo around pits after I had known Cedar for a couple of years, and could hardly believe they were talking about the same breed.

So while I know very little about Pits, I am loathe to make breed-specific generalizations where temperament is concerned. I think breed matters in that they all have their characteristics, but it's not fair to say "all dogs of a certain breed"...well, anything.

I think the "find the Pit" page is pretty enlightening. I can't count how many times people have asked if MY dog was a Pit. I don't get it. But it was my breed that was on everybody's s*** list several years ago (MANY years ago, actually) and there are still problems related to that prejudice (getting insurance, renting an apartment, etc.) even though it's completely irrelevant and stupid. I don't think it's fair to do that to an entire breed just because the bad behavior of some individuals continues to get publicity.

I think it's important that the folks who KNOW this breed advocate for them instead of feeding the stereotypes. All JMHO.