Quote: peter cavallaro

firstly; why didn't i protect my dog, hey i went in good faith with a paid expert to learn, i didn't know what he was going to do and i physically stopped him soon as i did - can you do more than that,

Peter, this comment "simply put he overlays a bit of brutality on dogs to gain control so they are in a constant state of near avoidance." gave me the impression you knew the guys techniques and believed them to be brutal - and then let him demo with your dog. If that HAD been the case, my point was to protect your dog by not letting the guy demo with him at all.

The experienced herding folks are asking what exactly the "brutal" techniques are - perhaps they in fact are appropriate for specific situations. We will all learn something once you get those facts out and we hear the responses.

sorry i am not going to put up techniques that i think someone might take away as valid and then cause a dog suffering - even though they will get results for SOME dogs. i refer to Ed's description in an article of a technique in bite training he describes as "barbaric" (which i agree) i am sure you will all know what the refernce is to. i would guess most people here would also agree. as with the joys of internet some would read this as valid training techniques and go home and try them, in fact Ed refers to Sch clubs that do this routinely. would appreciatte if we could move on and talk about humane methods for training an all breeds approach, the GSD has the unpopular fast fading upright style which the majority herding community are getting less specialised to train for. it will take special interest groups to recognise the training needs of the upright loose-eye breeds to preserve them and collect, analyse and provide good information to the public so less dogs will have to suffer due to training methods that don't suit their genetics.

Peter, I hatched out some runner ducks this summer and then went and had a private lesson with a Australian Shep (loose eyed dog) trainer. Best fifteen dollars ever spent. She really helped me. About 1/2 hr. She evaluated his personality (fearful) (not desperate to please) (too much pressure he will quit) (strong herding instinct)
In a stall, she had me teach my dog to go to the wall to move the ducks, i.e. not go at the ducks at all, but go at the wall, going left is "bye" and going right is "away".
It has taken months but he is getting it with the cattle now. We do duck practice about 5 days a week, about 5 minutes a time. He has learned "wait" also.
He was terrific help today with the cattle, there when I needed him, hunting mice when I didn't.
Hope you can find a better trainer.

hi Betty, have considered ducks as a cheaper training enhancement (not replacement) than the logistics of running sheep & cattle. what breeds do you suggest, do you have to clip their wings. my regular trainer is awesome, she specialises in GSD, Mal & Briard training and understands the style. unfortunately a few hours drive away. the guy i had the incident with was an import, big trial money winner. don't know if there is any big money to be won directly at Sch or any other dog sports - excluding racing? what dog breed/s do you train.

 Quote: peter cavallaro

i refer to Ed's description in an article of a technique in bite training he describes as "barbaric" (which i agree) i am sure you will all know what the refernce is to.

Are you talking table training? I have never seen any herding training that would be remotely similar to the type of training that is. You won't see any dogs out here being forced into defense like that.

To be honest, I don't think training the two different breeds is all that separate. I've worked BCs and I've worked my Corgi and they both end up learning the same way. They just have different techniques. I agree to expect a loose-eyed dog to hold strong to the heads isn't ideal. But each dog is different. They all need to learn to control the stock the same way. A flank is a flank is a flank. And outrun is an outrun. In my experience it's the learning curve of the dog that's important. I worked a 6 month old BC that's more advanced than my Corgi. But strong-eyed dogs control the sheep naturally. Loose-eyed have to learn how.

I only know how to train stockdogs one way. I've gone through two trainers, and the groundwork is the same. You teach the dog to respond to pressure, you teach him where he's supposed to be in relation to you and the sheep, and you teach them what appropriate behavior is with the sheep (ie. no biting, no cutting through the herd). Everything else is based off that.

But I'm no expert.

Have a poorly bred ACDx. 23 angus on couple hundred acres that is rotational grazed. I have never "trained" a dog before, my other dogs just sort of grew up, knew heel, sit, stay, come, that seemed to be enough for them.
Found forum because my dog was -- well, I needed help.
Only duck experience is runner ducks. They can't fly far, no wing clipping. Cheap to feed. Bedding with sawdust helps control the mess. Very useful to teach my dog the herding words. Don't need a pond.
Earlier, looking for help, went to BC trial introductory class. Very intimidating--dogs like robots. My dog is not robot material.

hi Kate yes article referred to table training.
be great to hear from old hands that have are familiar with different herding styles - i believe they are vastly different, different dogs raised for different stock management scenarios on different terrain, in different climates with different types of stock, and different flocking instincts amongst stock to no flock instinct outside a family unit, different external threats, different cultures and differnces that can be narrowed down to different lines across counties to adress local requirements, and differnt enclosures to no enclosure...., i can't see how you don't register that. the similarities are IMO only superficial. Betty hope you have fun with the ACD, why poorly bred, does it naturally heel stock or try herd them.

Stil don't understand why we haven't heard any further information on the herding methods or trainers.

But I've got a few more questions that maybe I can get a clear answer to??

What is your purpose for doing herding with your dog?

How long have you been doing it?

Who are you training with?

What are their qualifications? Accomplishments?

What type of dog do you have? How long have you been training with him?

I'm hearing a lot of vague references with no solid information about just what you want to talk about. You say something is "brutal" but can give no solid information why.

FWIW, I have to drive 2+ hours each way for a good trainer. It's just part of the learning process.

I have had Various Runners, Rouens, campbells,cayugas,Pekin, Blue Swedish, wood, and Muscovy ducks over the years. The best ducks for herding,IMO, are the runners, they do just that, they run! You’d want a light bodied bird, they move faster, other breeds are too heavy and slow, their butts weight them down.Campbells are ok, domestic mallards would be next. Drakes move faster because they don’t lose their “get up and go” with eggs. The only wings I have clipped on ducks are the Muscovy hens, and the Rouens.

 Quote:

Earlier, looking for help, went to BC trial introductory class. Very intimidating--dogs like robots. My dog is not robot material.

Just curious, but was this group training for AKC arena trials?

It is very possible to train a dog to run a course instead of work the stock. And it is much more prevelant in folks who train for one type of trial vs. training the dog to work. BCs trained for real work need to take direction but also be able to think on their feet and read/cover the stock.