You're dead.

Mr. Stephenson,
Over generalizations are horribly dangerous. Although I concur with the sentiment of the thread, that being that American bred GSDs should be labeled something else,I beg to remind you that if it were not for the "SHOW" people, who you seem to believe have organized a malicious undetaking against "people like us",
your dogs would be crippled. Of course my comparison is with the highline german shepherd, not the standard set forth by and oft emulated Manhattan's Covy-Tucker Hill.

This polarization that you perpetuate that will be the ruin of the most noble of breeds. How many dogs have you cared for, bred, conditioned and trained for the Zuchtschau or Koer?

I do not suggest that a Haus Beck or Weinerau dog would be my choice for a service dog, however, the proverbial thumbing of noses at the "other side" is neither based in fact or productive. Now is the time for opposition to come to the table and discuss the direction of the breed for the next 100 years, we have "working people" in key positions in the SV; moreover, it is time to DO something about it! Rhetorical discussions mean nothing because there is no substance. That fact of the matter is is that I'm equally guilty. I abondoned the Zuchtschau for a "working dog". I have a 22" tall, needle nosed 60 pound dog to show for it; where did that get me? What willme contribution to the breed be with a physical specimen like this?

Let's get more "working people" in the ring, that's the only way to convince anyone that a working dog should look like a working dog. Compare, if you will, the pictures of Uran V. Wildsteiger-Land to the most recent Seiger show winner. Uran produced a few really good working dogs, he LOOKS like a working dog. The polarization has continued because some, if not many "working people" breed strickly for performance. Ed, the biggest advocate I know for working dogs never produced a VA winner but his dogs are cetainly not ugly, disfunctional or malformed. Although not a breed student in the sense of breed ring, Ed will also be sure to tell you that the Koer Klasse has its purpose.

Breed, train, sell and promote KKL1a, strong nerved,hard working dogs with good hips that go to regional and national competitions then condemn someone else for coming up short in their efforts.

Uran looks like a working dog?

LOOKS like a working dog .. Hmm.. Im deaf but.. I LOOK like I can hear.

there are people breeding koer classed working dogs....I have a SG KKL1 bitch, bred to a V rated Maineiche male - SchH3, KKL1...my other bitch was brought from Germany unkoered - long story - but bred to a V rated sable Mink-Troll dog...she will be koered when a FAIR koermesiter is available this year - and in the opinion of a show handler will do KKL1 as well - she will probably be bred to a the same V rated, Sch3, KKL1 Maineiche male...the so called "golden middle" can be bred from all working lines!!!!

Why should working GSD breeders shoot for a Golden Middle when the ideal GSD that the SV puts up every year is just about the worst possible form for a working shepherd dog?


Huge bodies lacking agility, speed, quickness, and jumping ability. I'll take the ugly 80lbs working dog that can get over an 8' flat stone wall any day of the week over the VA male that looks like an elephant lumbering over the A-frame, with leg bones that put my ample arms to shame, and a head and neck that looks like it belongs on a Mastiff sized dog.

We need to breed the dogs to have the best physical form to do police service work, Schutzhund, and herding. . .not trotting around in a big circle.


I don't think that the ideal the SV puts up for us to aspire to is what the breed should look like.


So why do I care if a dog is V and KKL'd or not?


Oh, wait. . .I don't.

What amazes me is that everyone thinks that the GSD can't look like a GSD without shows. Dutch Mals don't even have papers, and they are pretty consistent. Much moreso that all of the flavors of GSD.

A dog with proper structure for a working breed is a dog with working structure. How do you tell if the dog has the structure to work? ...

I agree with you Robert. I'll too take the ugly, multi-colored one whom was meant to FUNCTION vs. the "poster dog". I think the ideal GSD should be able to scale a 7' wall with no problem, as it was done and proven in the past.

Everybody says they want working ability, but at the same time, they don't want an ugly working dog. IMO, take one or the other. Work is not always pretty. If there is a middle mark somewhere, then there's something missing too. Beauty, IMO, should be considered a bonus, not a goal.

No the work isn't pretty, it is beautiful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I don't want my point to get lost in show vs. working argument. I'm speaking specifically to the structure of the ideal GSD. I feel that the conformation the show folks are shooting for is wrong, that form doesn't give the dog the structure and physical ability necessary for the work we use him for.

Funny thing is, if you put stacked photos (or get a chance to see them in person) of 2 V rated dogs, one being working line and one being showline, you will notice that they look different. It seems they look for more of a middle of the standard for working lines to get a V rating, yet they want the oversized, overdone dogs for V ratings in showline. Double standards at it's finest. :rolleyes: