I know.. what you describes is essentially what I'm looking for.

Now I'm just trying to find it.

Michael,

You have been misinformed. I've met or trained with 100+ K-9 teams over the last 9 years as a handler and helper (including the 30+ dogs in my training group.) I have never heard of ONE department that required the dog to be crated at home. Occasionally, I've heard of a department that requires the dog to stay in the car when the handler is at the station, but that's it.

As far as training/temperment goes, the vast, vast majority of police dogs have the same temperment and character as Schutzhund dogs: stable. Training does not alter temperment.

Thanks for the reply..

I was told it was a liablity issue. If the handler's children did something to provoke the dog and the dog bit them, the department would be liable...

I disagree with the "sport" aspect. A lot of departments have schutzhund dogs for patrol dogs.. THOSE dogs are not the dogs that Im speaking of. There are two dogs I know of here that need to be muzzled whenever they are in public.

Itll make an interesting thing for me to research, Im going to talk to the patrol officers this weekend and will find out more information..

MOST patrol dogs that are schutzhund dogs HAVE NO BUSINESS being on the streets PERIOD. It is RARE that there are patrol dogs with the right temperament for the job..

Originally posted by Michael DelVecchio:
... There are two dogs I know of here that need to be muzzled whenever they are in public... MOST patrol dogs that are schutzhund dogs HAVE NO BUSINESS being on the streets PERIOD. It is RARE that there are patrol dogs with the right temperament for the job... Um, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but a Patrol Dog needs to have the same rock solid temperment and nerves as a sport dog. I do agree that many departments use dogs from sport backgrounds that don't exhibit the traits I like to see in a patrol dog, and many of those dogs should not be on the street. It's not a temperment thing for me so much as it is a drives/working ability thing.

As for the two dogs that need to be muzzled to be out in public: These are NOT the type of dogs that should be Patrol Dogs or sport dogs. They do have a place, but that place should be a prison or military environement where a larger degree of sharpness is desired and liability is not so much an issue. These dogs are a problem waiting to happen if they are working the street, IMO.

I think what Michael is trying to say is that there are SchH titled dogs that do not really have the needed nerves and temperament to be patrol dogs.
I've seen *many* show line SchH titled dogs that I could chase off a field just using a nasty demeanor - those dogs, despite a SchH title, would obviously fail an K-9 suitability test done by a knowledgeable K-9 trainer like Kevin.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a sport temperament if you just doing the sport ( and if you think about it for a moment, those will be the high point dogs, of course ). These are the type of dogs that high level sport handlers look for - they're not looking for bragging rights on how hard the dog is, they want to win! I think the trouble begins when people start fooling themselves about what their dog honestly can and can not do.
A big name handler was going on and on about how their dog was capable of being used for anything, sport, police patrol work, etc. That handler has done great in the SchH here in America, but I saw a lot of fundamental temperament flaws with the dog when it was tested outside of it's normal environment, i.e., the SchH field. I seriously think that a truly threatening helper would be able to force the dog into a retreat. But without actually doing so, you'd never be able to convince the handler of that.


And as for the dogs that *actually* do require muzzles to be around the public, we have a name for those dogs and their future employment opportunities - "cell extraction dogs" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Will, Thats exactly what I was trying to convey. There is a helper at my club that can run 90 percent of all titled dogs OFF THE FIELD and make them look lame. My point is, there are many schutzhund "show" dogs that do not have the "fight drive or seriousness" to perform as patrol dogs.

"cell extraction dogs" are dogs that I want and need <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well stated, Will !!!

Hmmmmmm! "Cell extraction dogs" sounds like a very promising career for Fetz and Emma. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

There is a helper at my club that can run 90 percent of all titled dogs OFF THE FIELD and make them look lame

Is this just in your club or the whole world?
Im sorry but i dont buy it, if its all the dogs in the world then i think your insane to say such a thing, if its just your club dogs and he can run 90% of them of the field then perhaps they are not very high standard dogs.

 Quote:

My point is, there are many schutzhund "show" dogs that do not have the "fight drive or seriousness" to perform as patrol dogs.

Are you trying to say that every "working" dog has the "fight drive or seriousness" to perform as patrol dogs. If you are I dont think you really know what your talking about.

Just so you dont think im being rude - my experience in schutzhund is limited to my club and videos ive watched of competitions and the material ive read - im not proclaiming to know more than the next person, far from it - i just speak from my own experiences - if Im wrong please tell me.