After re-reading Paul and Commander Geel you are right a guard dog can be trained by the onwer.

Having a dog that will guard/protect his home and family, it is possible to train that. But it is hard to test what the dog will do in a stresful situation. If he remains untested. But if he wants a dog that can deter and look like he will protect, this can be trained.

So I retract my inital post. I agree there is a difference between a guard dog and a protection dog. Its sounds like he has done his home work and should do well. But the more control you have over your dog the better.

Commander Geel I didn't know. Sorry for trying to demote you but I didn't know you had such a high ranking position. And you still get in the dirt with the crew, that's commendable.

This what made us think he planning on doing bite work which will take help or a helper. Maybe not take a pro but you will need someone that knows what he doing. Or If the dog gets out of that muzzle I hope yor have plently of gauze!!! and your helper don't mind having stichted back up. $hit happens.

...Then at the age of 3 years have a helped pretend to break in the house, of course I will have a muzzle on the dog for this test. I cannot afford a body suit.

I foresee the 3 year test as a problem unless the dog has been specifically trained to bark, bite, or both. Muzzle or not, unless the dog has been trained to react a certain way, there are too many unknowns. A guard dog might end up being a sharp dog, a fear biter, etc........

Don,
I totally agree that if he intends to bite train the dog,then he not only needs a helper but someone with the right knowledge or it will be an accident waiting to happen.
Paul

Yes Paul I think he could get him up to the stage of aggressive prey drive then a helper would be needed and safety would be important.

Some people say that even a pro can get bite, thats true but I've seen situations were the muzzle slipped off or the civil tie out broke or the handler lost control of the dog snacthed leash away.

A rookie helper can panic and get bit pretty bad, but a experince handler. Can judge a dog. I've seen the muzzle about to come off and the helper secured it while the dog muzzled his stomach, I've seen a experince handler just freeze and the dog stopped and started barking, I've seen an handler throw the prey item and the dog go after it instead.

A rookie might panic and run (worst thing to do) or scream and shout worst thing to do or try to freeze on the wrong dog.

Being a rookie in this situation is one of the worst thing to be, Sorta like the bull run in spain.

These handlers knew or took a calculated risk after working with these dogs, that they knew the dogs aggression level. None of them where bit in these incidents. What nerves? They say its training, I say its nerves/balls of steel.

A rookie trainer/helper is sorta like eating pot luck, you don't know what to expect and it can get messing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don,
Good observations,a rookie should only work with an experienced dog until they become confident in the situations they will find themselves but as you say even the best can get a bite but usually they are able to reduce the severity of it by their actions.
Paul

Warning this is a long one!

Has anyone had a dog that was protection trained and the training was NOT done by a professional? Well unfortunately I have, my purebred bitch boxer was, At that time I was green to the world of protection trained dogs, but he taught me her commands. I did some research though on my own also, didn't go into it with my head completely up my butt, had a few people look at her both in our home and at their facility and said her only problems were her food aggression, possession aggression and she was a dominating ALPHA with the capital A. We had her about a month when we had our first episode, father in law walked right into our house w/out knocking, well she heard someone come in-rushed out of my daughters room, and had I not grabbed her when I did, she would have attacked him-she went right for his face. The entire time he was down to visit she would give him low growls, if he got up to quickly her hair would stand on end, and she would back him right down into the couch, growling and boardering on a snarl. Things like this would come and go it wasn't constant, but her final episode was the worst- my daughter started to cry, my hubby picked her up and she(the dog) thought he did something to her, and went after him-I got my daugher out of his arms, and she bit me thinking okay now she has hurt the baby. She wouldn't listen to her commands, he had to beat her off with the closest thing he could find a vaccum tube(WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN HITTING OUR ANIMALS!!!!)-while trying to get her back to her crate-it was like seeing a new verison of Cujo-the fury in her eyes is something I never want to see again. She wouldn't stop,he was on him butt because she had knocked him down trying to get at his throat, I am trying to comfort our daughter who narrowly missed a bite herself and kept her in the next room so she couldn't see the maddness. All the while he is trying to keep her off of him, he finally got her in the kennel, and she kept slamming against the door, trying to bite him-and he is no small guy, but then again she was a true German Boxer-not the wimpy American type. Well needless to say I contacted the breeder/trainer and he said it just must be something we did and her true temperment was now showing as she was now fully matured. He also said that there was nothing he could do for us-he can't guarentee the protection training because he said who knows what we did to her once we got her and he would not take her back-as he had stated he would take her back, if something would happen and we couldn't keep her. To sum it up a little bit more quickly we ended up putting her to sleep. She was too much of a liability. There wasn't anything medically wrong with her-we had tests done. What was wrong with her was the way she was trained, and a family who lost control of her but also never really had it.

Now Denver I am in no way saying that you produce such a dog, or train your dog with such irresposnibleness, what I am say is-and I know this now-MAKE SURE YOUR DOG HAS GOOD NERVES. This is the one thing that I didn't check mine on, and looking back-yep she had weak nerves, and had fear aggression. MAKE DAMN sure you know how to appropriately train a dog for this, get advice, read books and watch all the Leerburg videos on training that you can. And keep in mind that you are in a sense playing with fire, and what someday if not properly trained can be like playing Russian Roulette with a loaded gun. IMO without going to someone who can proprly train your dog has certificates and referrals that you can see and call on is crazy. Try saving up for it if you can-and good luck.

Dee Dee, that was a great warning that not having a good idea of the working of a protection training. This dog could have probably been worked out before she was an adult and even after.
Of course she would have to be seen in person but it seem that she didn't have a constant dose of Obedeince in her life and she needed commands that would tell her things are Ok or to shut down.

She has to know that what you say means more then what she wants to do. Its really just high stress OB with a distraction.

If I say "Its Ok", "Stop" or "Leave it" he has to understand that what I want is law. He may eye the guy the whole time he around him or growl but he won't bark or attack unless the person tries to touch him or makes a aggressive move toward me or my family. You should be able to tell the dog its Ok and he allow the guy to touch him.

I know you were not looking for a fix, but this is something that Denver needs to think about implementing. If he is thinking of bite work or he could have a similar stroy to tell.

Not only how to bite, should taught, but when, maybe where, then to stop before the bite and after. Control worked in.

Just a thought, maybe he should just be trained as guard dog, but if you are up to it a Protection dog is better, if done right, its a liability if training is not complete. And its never is you have to constantly go over your OB Bite and control Commands. Until he's too old to bite.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What happened with the boxer was terrible, she was roughly 2 and of course the breeder had trained her so most of the messed up foundation was already there, but amazingly the basic obedience, sit, come, stay, heel she was good at, it was when she felt it was time to protect that she would take it to the extreme, and then in the end she stopped listening all together, that is where it is my fault, he never told me to continually work on the protection part of it, and not knowing then what I know now I didn't know I had to. She was a great example of the result of poor training and poor ownership <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> . With my GSD who I got at 8 wks I did teach him the command of "leave it" "enough" and with him my training has been complete CONSISTANCY and now CONSTANT PRACTICING-something that is important with ALL training.

Human ignorance is the number one killer of people and pets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I guess my point in all of this is that once you decide to agitate a dog to a bite (or probable bite) you have a responsibility to the dog, the community, and yourself to finish the job. If you have a dog that has a high probability of having enough natural protectiveness that you know it is likely that the dog will bite in response to what the dog sees as a threat, you have an obligation to teach the dog the "rules". If you aren't willing to do these things get a poodle.