Cameron,

I went to National K9 in Columbus, Ohio. Not the preferred school according to everyone on this forum.

Will has stated at one point that he has never met a good trainer that has come out of Nat K9.Thats kind of like saying all Pitbulls are vicious and should be put down. And Will, after being on this forum for awhile, I will agree with you 100% that if you are attending the school to learn to train protection, Police K9, Schutzhund, ect. then Nat K9 is not a credible school for that particular type of training, and the school did let me know that up front before I attended. I respect the owner of Nat K9 and the instructors that teach there. I was pleased with my training for Pet Obedience and have a successful business. I do no advertising. All of my business has been built on vet referrals and client word of mouth. I groom about 140 dogs per month, train maybe 5 or 6 per month, only because my grooming schedule does not allow me more training.I board approx. 5-8 dogs per week. (My facility is small)

What upsets me about this forum is that most members have no respect for anything I say. I respect all of you and the advise you have to offer. If I didn't respect your advise I would not continue to be a part of this forum. Even if I don't agree with you, I don't say you that your advise is bad and that you are poor trainers. I don't feel I have ever slammed anyone here for their training techniques. I don't know any of your backgrounds, but I don't think all of you are professional trainers or experts. So how can you give better advise unless you actually train dogs other than your own. This kind of reminds me of the Petsmart and Petco trainers. Some, not all of them, were given a book to read, took a written test and then they are deemed trainers. They have no hands on, real world experience in training. I have taken my credentials off my signature because on this forum they have no relevance or significance.

Connie,
It is very offensive and rude to tell someone that their advise is flat out wrong. You and I have butted heads on everyting in this forum from feeding to training. You you are the resident expert on everything because you have watched some Leerburg videos. I don't know what your credentials are, if you have any. My advise to you is to broaden your horizons alittle bit and step out of the box. Good trainers have many tools in their toolbox and they have an open mind. News Flash-Your way is not always the right way. You might want to practice your tactfulness, especially being a moderator on a forum. And no, I am not going to bother Ed with this issue, I'm sure he has better things to do with his time.

Do I think I am the best trainer...no. Do I have alot to learn...yes, doesn't everybody. I enjoy this forum and many of you have helped me a great deal and I thank you for it. I joined the forum because I was interested in training working dogs, and many of you are experts in that field. I have alot to learn and I know that.

Connie-FYI-I have incorporated a behavior marking session in my obedience classes and I am training my ABD using Eds methods. My puppy appears to have a problem obeying my commands when I do not have my treat/marker with me,so I put her prong collar on and now she listens very well once I started administering my consequences as Mike, not Michael prefers them to be called.

Will,

I will check out that link....I need alittle comic relief right now. I apologize if I hijacked this thread.

As far as this topic is concerned I am done and ready to move on to more relevant topics pertaining to this forum.Thank you for letting me voice my opinion.

 Quote: lisa harrison

So how can you give better advise unless you actually train dogs other than your own.

I don't know the credentials of everyone who responded to the thread, but the people you seem to have problems with are all long-time trainers. (In my case, speaking for no one else, longer than you've been alive, I hate to guess. :grin

About the rudeness of saying that something is flat-out wrong: Sorry, but it is flat-out wrong to tell people (again, one example; others were addressed by other posters) that marker training does not allow for proofing or correcting.

 Quote: lisa harrison

Clicker there are no corrections or consequences for not performing a command.

http://leerburg.com/765.htm




I don't recall the food issue. Was it you who said that dogs needed 60% carbs? That would be another incorrect statement that I'm afraid just would not be allowed to stand unchallenged.

The mods are mods because they have long experience, Lisa. It's not a popularity contest. Personally, I thought that I was generally courteous, helpful, and affable, and I know that I give freely of years' worth of canine nutrition research and study, but I will definitely take your comments to heart.

I believe you absolutely that you are a successful pet trainer.

It would be much better to take your objections to Ed (or Cindy) than to hijack threads. Thank you.

 Quote: lisa harrison

My puppy appears to have a problem obeying my commands when I do not have my treat/marker with me

You might want to gradually wean the puppy off the tangible rewards. I do this by rewarding maybe 5 out of 6 times and so on until I am giving only random occasional tangible rewards.

You may find that your voice marker (once you load it) will work fine in addition to (along with) your clicker, if the clicker is what you are using.

Gradual distraction proofing is good, too.

Perhaps part of the problem here, Lisa, is that the training advice on this board is not in general aimed for pets or pet owners. Most of us have working type dogs and train for a particular venue.

I have a couple of pups that I kept back from breedings. They are not being raised the way a pet would be. Taking advice from a pet type trainer that does not understand working dogs would have the potential of negatively effecting their future training.

Connie is one of the most tactful mods around. You are really off base there.

Lisa, I will comment here as a pet owner, but also an avid reader of this board, which is geared toward working dogs.

I think that if you take the time to read many posts here and evaluate the advice, you will find that the mods and the experienced members (like Mike Schoonbrood) are fair in what they say.

In my observation, these members with working dogs go to great lengths to develop a strong bond with their dogs. This is why you will rarely read advice here to give a pup a correction (for other than pack structure issues).

If you use your head, you will be able to convey to your pup what you are trying to accomplish, with no corrections in the learning and distraction phases. If your method isn't working well with your pup (without prong corrections), get on here and ask for suggestions. Your bond with your pup will surely be better for it...

Here's my other observation. The past is the past. I'm sure you are still welcome here, in spite of a few contentious threads. So shrug it off and move forward...

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

... Here's my other observation. The past is the past. I'm sure you are still welcome here, in spite of a few contentious threads. So shrug it off and move forward...

Lynne, what a nice post.

P.S.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

... with no corrections in the learning and distraction phases. ...

I'm with you on the time for corrections, if needed -- after the teaching and proofing, IMO, when the dog knows the command backwards and forwards, and in all venues, but doesn't comply.

Also, if my dog obeyed only when I had treats and clickers, I'd probably back way up and ask myself (1) if I had been using treats as bribes rather than rewards (otherwise, how does the dog know if there are no treats handy?) and (2) if I had properly distraction-proofed my training. I never have a problem with backing up, even to square one. Well -- maybe a minor blow to the ol' self-esteem -- but no training philosophy objections.



And I might review this about voice markers with clicker markers: http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/190622/page/1#Post190622

and
QUOTE: The important thing to keep in mind is that at some point in time using a clicker needs to be combined with a voice MARKER and then after that the clicker is eliminated. END from http://leerburg.com/765.htm#clicker


and http://leerburg.com/motivationtheory.htm
QUOTE: .... Training is composed of a learning phase, a distraction phase, a correction phase, and a maintenance phase. Food can be used in the learning phase, it can be used as a distraction and it can be used in the maintenance phase throughout the life of the dog. END

and
QUOTE: When a handler embraces the fact that he will use food in his training he must then learn how to do this correctly. Marker training (or clicker training) is hands down the best way.END from http://leerburg.com/usingtreats.htm

and
http://leerburg.com/draft.htm#schedules includes Variable Schedules of Reinforcement.

Nobody has misled me. I am discussing the breed in general and personal experience with my specific animal. I have already dealt with tracheal damage. I also have extensive experience training dogs (in the past. I won't pretend I am trained or experienced anymore) and am quite familiar with how to use a various types of collars - on other dogs.

I will not tether my italian greyhounds to a wall, period.

I do not wish to discuss that issue further.

I also do not have a greyhound, I have italian greyhounds.

I have stayed away from this thread because it got very ridiculous, but I followed the advice on the first page of the thread given by Lynne (thank you) and I did not need to do the things I did not feel comfortable doing with this particular dog.

It took all of a day for everything to right itself and everything has been fine since.

 Quote: Cristy Strauss

It took all of a day for everything to right itself and everything has been fine since.

Nicely done!
This thread did seem to take on a life of its own; glad that you were able to sift out what you felt would work for your particular dog...

Hi Cristy. Sounds like the problem is solved, great! I just wanted to offer support for your good instincts where you dog is concerned. So in support of what you already know, I offer the following:

I came in late, but wanted to say that sighthounds really ARE different. I've worked with a lot of Greyhounds, my own, fosters and with rescue. More than a few Whippets and Italian Greyhounds have come my way too. Generally, using a prong collar on a Greyhound is beyond excessive. They don't tend to respond well to leash corrections, and if they respond at all it usually just shuts them down. And while it's true that many small dogs can benefit from corrections, IG's are structurally VERY fragile and I can't imagine using a leash-pop, even a subtle one on of these guys. NEVER tie a sighthound to anything immobile...it's asking for a broken neck!

Sighthounds respond the best to positive training with markers, and few, if any corrections. I apologize if my post is redundant, but I think few people realize just how different these guys are from other dogs.