That is also the point I was trying to make Will. There are PLENTY of SchH dogs that wouldn't make the grade as Patrol Dogs. There are a few that can (and do.)

My point was that temperment and nerves (stable, calm, confident) *should* be the same across the board for a balanced SchH dog and balanced Patrol Dog. I'm talking about temperment here, not drives or hardness.

I personally like to see a dog (for both schutzhund and patrol) that exhibits a rock-solid temperment and bombproof nerves in all environments. A dog with high, but balanced drives. A hard dog with some degree of sharpness, but not so much as to be unapproachable (such as the dogs that need to be muzzled.)

But then again, I'm not looking for a top sport dog either. My dogs are dual-purpose Patrol Dogs first and schutzhund dogs second. If I don't get a 100 pt track, so be it. They perform well in both areas, but I look at a dog as a Patrol Dog first, and look for those qualities first also.

Of course, when looking at a dog for sport or prison/military work, I would select a dog that exhibits different characteristics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Scott,
I am in agreement with what you're saying.
I'm in the same situation as you are - I'll be trading a few points on the SchH field for increased utility in the real world, so be it.

after reading this thread, i'm curious as why anyone who wants a "real" dog would breed to any schutzhund (sport) dog, instead of looking around and finding a great patrol dog and breeding to that dog? are there any well known patrol dogs who are well known producers?

Well known patrol dog producers?
Of course, Kevin Sheldhal's CJ jumps to mind!
http://k9services.com/CJ.htm

A female puppy out of CJ is my next planned dog, and I'm really looking forward to it. Those are genes to die for, in my opinion.

And Ed's Otis was a great patrol dog producer, also.


And Scott, in today's dog training world, even if you own a great "Real Dog", a SchH title is usually required to get stud services and sell puppies. SchH is no longer my main interest now that I do American Street Ring, but I realize that I have to title my dog Fetz in SchH for people to consider him a worthy dog. But I also realize that his puppies are probably going to be over the top for most sport handlers, so I'll need to try and get committed homes first *before* breedings, probably to folks that desire PPD's.

Will....I'm shocked that you forgot the "World's Ugliest Police Dog". <grin>

I'll add one comment to the sport vs real work thing.

There are plenty of high level SchH dogs I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.


The better sport dogs who are trained well. . .WILL. . .bite the shnit out of you. . . if given half a chance.


More important than looking to breed to this kind of titled sport dog or that kind of certified patrol dog. . .is to select/evaluate the dogs you want to breed for the overall traits that all good working dogs will need. . .be it on the SchH field or the street.

Matthew,
Since we were talking about GSD's and not Mal's, I didn't mention Nitro:
http://www.geocities.com/mtpdk9/breeding.html

Just pray that any puppy that you get out of a Nitro litter takes it's looks from the dam, or be prepared for a lot of comments from strangers that range from the polite "what kind of dog is that?"
to the honest "what's with that dog? Was it in some type of terrible nuclear accident?"
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunatly each day Airus starts to look more and more like his father.....especially in the face! Ouch!! :rolleyes:

I was just thinking "outloud" and not trying to be sarcastic with my comments. Im a new handler myself with a dog that has his BH and is going for his ScH1 this coming February....

I would much rather have Will's Fetz than A LOT of dogs out there competing in Schutzhund. There are a lot of ScH dogs that have no business being on the streets.. My dog Onyx is going for his 1, YET he is a certified hearing ear dog (Im deaf, so I got him certified so I could take him to public places with me), is in training for personal protection.. Talk about "stable temperament".. He is stable, allright, but Id trade him for Fetz anytime <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Im here on the board to LEARN and HEAR "no puns intended" what others have to say..