I say end it. There are many dogs who are not a risk out there without a home to waste time on this one. Sorry if it sounds to harsh, but there are dogs out there dying who wouldn't bite anyone.

Snap #1 he was on a leash. Snap #2 was in my kitchen and I stopped keeping him on a leash in the house because he listens. When I say "distraction" this is where his training is at..

Sit, wait, down, stay, heel, walking on a lead, etc. He's well mannered compared to many dogs you would see in your neighborhood. However, if he were outside and I put him in a down-stay and another dog walked by he would most likely take off and then try to dominate the other dog.

The correction. This part is bad. I know what I should have done when that happened. I should have choked him out, but I didn't. I made a judgment call that was probably incorrect. The first snap(the serious one) was in a group of people on a lead with a prong collar and I didn't want to go "level 10" on the dog in front of a crowd. At the time I felt it would have made a bad situation worse. I don't think many people would understand and only myself and the child's mom witnessed the snap.

The second snap he wasn't on a lead since he was in the house. Also, from the first incident I thought that the lead may have been part of the problem. Another aspect of Jerry's personality is that he has always been more aggressive to other animals and kids while on a lead. He's only snapped twice, but while on a lead he has barked and raised his hackles at kids that were just walking by.

Enough history. Jerry is today what he is today. We bought him to raise as a family house pet. We've missed the mark by a good bit. Some of that is probably my fault. The one thing I can't get out of my mind (which is why I'm leaning towards the one way vet trip) at this point is as follows:

How can anyone keep a dog in a house with kids that needs special handling? We're never going to be lion tamers and I will never be able to fully prevent another child from mis-handling him in my house without secluding him. Even if I were to seclude him, one of my 4 family members could make a mistake.

Right now I can't see how any training, from any trainer, would completely eliminate the risk. There needs to be good degree of tolerance to mis-handling in a family dog's personality. Accidents will happen.

I have to admit that the rott killing the toddler in Pasadena yesterday has somewhat cemented my convictions. What a horrible tragedy.

Regarding Jerry's weight. He's pretty skinny. He's a good weight for his size. You can see his last ribs and he still has some filling out to do. He's just large.

I'm curious to what the experienced trainers think about this topic, should all dogs who aren't trustworthy around kids, or anyone for that matter, be euthanized?

"should all dogs who aren't trustworthy around kids, or anyone for that matter, be euthanized?"

No, of course not.

Will, with that thought in mind, I'm going to ask a pretty green question. Can a dog of Fetz's sharpness/temperment, with other than PPD training, be a family type dog? I realize he's got way to much drive to do nothing, but could he have gone in a different direction, with different training? I'm not talking about being a nanny dog here. Just a good, active family dog. Obviously an expierienced owner would be needed. I admire the he(( out of a dog like Fetz. (and his training of course).

Sadly, probably not with Fetz or dog like him with that type of temperament. His sharpness was apparent around eight months, and he had only gotten obedience and tracking training up to that point, no bitework. Yet the first situation in which someone struck me ( in play ) with him watching set him off. Nothing I trained him for, just temperament at that point.

He and dogs like him just are what they are. They can be a real asset with training to the person that needs a dog like that, or a horror story that ends with a trip to the Vet for Euth if owned by folks not up to controlling that level of dog.

Ok,.My turn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
If the only problem the dog has is children, I don't see a major problem here. At this point, he hasn't bitten anyone, even a kid (unless I missed something).

I'm hearing alot of "working dog" comments. That is irrelevant. And I don't think he necessarily has to be placed with a "trainer" or someone who has lots of dog experience.

I think this dog would be just fine with any responsible person with some "big dog" experience, of course with no kids. If the future owner is aware of the issue and they are a "responsible" person, no child is going to be eaten, because a responsible person will make sure that never happens. He could make a good pet for the right person/home. One thing I think we all agree on, without a doubt, no kids.

 Quote:

The first snap(the serious one) was in a group of people on a lead with a prong collar and I didn't want to go "level 10" on the dog in front of a crowd.

I'm sorry, but this flew all over me. WHO THE HELL CARES what "the crowd" would have thought?! The dog had just snapped at a child for no apparent reason!

When I was working through my dog's dog-aggression, I had to give extremely hard corrections - to the point of my dog yelping and hitting the ground on her belly with her ears down and tail under her, refusing to even move for up to a whole minute - when she so much as lifted her lip at another dog. Yes, I got some dirty looks and saw a few people talking about me, even though no one had the balls to come and say anything to my face. Of course, what were they actually going to say? My dog was not being 'nice,' so she got corrected for it and then I went right back to baby talk and praise and treats until she was 'naughty' again. Now she's not only the most obedient dog at the park when we go (she was that anyway), but she completely ignores other dogs too. She can also be trusted to go into the off-leash area and run and play with dozens of other loose dogs with not so much as one raised hackle, if I choose to let her do so. I haven't taken her there in over a year (since we completed training), but she is the same way whether she's in the yard and a strange dog comes to 'visit' or if we're on a walk and encounter another dog, whether on leash or off. Why? Because I had to get over my 'but what will the crowd think?' mentality and do what was necessary to curb the aggression in my dog. After 2 or 3 sessions, I switched to the e-collar for corrections, but the concept was the same and the level was as well - almost 15 levels higher than her normal obedience level on the e-collar.

My dog is also wary of *some* children and has snapped at a couple when they've gone to pet her - warning snaps. When we're out, and children try to approach her, I simply tell them that "Sorry, but you can't pet the dog," or "She isn't friendly," even though she's standing there wagging her tail and lolling her tongue at them. I plan to use the same type training that I used for her dog aggression with children, but I just haven't had the time to do it yet. This means taking her to the park or to the petstore or whatever, more than 12 miles from my house, and I just don't have the means right now. I have no doubt it would work, though.


My point is that you need to stop worrying what others will think when they see you correct him (if you choose to keep him and try to work through this problem, that is) and just DO IT. Little nagging corrections are not going to work and they could very well make the problem worse (again, speaking from first hand experience here).