Robbin:

It is hard to know for sure. I suspect it is a combination of all of the above. I see certain competitors at the National Seiger Shows, Steve Miller of Vom Haus Miller comes to mind as an example of someone who consistently has dogs that do good work.

I know that Steve trains his dogs and competes at the SchH3 Nationals. Every year that I have seen, they are among the 4 or 5 dogs that do well at the Seiger Show. There must be a correlation.

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This is NOT a political forum.

Sorry. I thought facts were OK.

 Quote: RobbinMann

Gary, I'm curious...with the titling of the Sieger shows, do you find that the majority of the dogs that suck in protection work do so because of issues with improper training and not taking the time to do correct foundation work or do you find that it is a lack of good breeding?

I think , MONEY has a lot to do with it, some of these breeders rush their dogs through training so that they can advertise the titles of their dogs in order to ask quiet a bit of money for their pups .Therefore putting a dog through a lot of stress , bad foundations, etc... and really when you look at the whole picture , how many breeders really know their dogs the way some of us know our dogs? How many breeders take their dogs for a car ride to the store, schools, cafe shops etc..
I bought a show line female for my parents (3 years ago)and the breeder told my parents that the dog just finished her heat cycle, loved other dogs NOT a dog aggressive type, loves car rides etc.. .Well after 2 days of having her she started her heat, wanted to kill my neighbors dog, hated to get in the car...What does that tell you.I am not saying all breeders are really clueless about their dogs but I bet a lot of breeders I see advertising in the GSD pedigree data base are.
And I am not saying that you need to take your dog to the cafe shop in order to know your dog, but their is more to discover about your dog then a training session and back into the kennel.
Besides waht Gary mentioned , $$$$ plays a huge part in all the mess.

 Quote:

but their is more to discover about your dog then a training session and back into the kennel

Welcome to the dog world. Thats how many many people are, especially with working dogs. The dogs are there to work, all they do is work, and if they cant work they are useless.

I know lots of people who would be an exception to that, but when money gets involved, thats the way alot of them are. Do you think the world champion's dog sleeps in the bedroom at night on a soft comforter? Or a cold concrete kennel run?

 Quote: Gary Fuqua

I see certain competitors at the National Seiger Shows, Steve Miller of Vom Haus Miller comes to mind as an example of someone who consistently has dogs that do good work.

I know that Steve trains his dogs and competes at the SchH3 Nationals. Every year that I have seen, they are among the 4 or 5 dogs that do well at the Seiger Show. There must be a correlation.

Interesting! I didn't know that about Steve. He's the one who bred my boy. Although I have to admit I don't care for the looks of even his show line dogs. I wish he'd stick to producing more Pareks

If the world champion were my dog he/she would certainly sleep on a comforter at the foot of my bed; he/she would be my companion in play, my eyes and ears in first defense, and holder of my most secret feelings and deeds day in and day out. I would hold on to him or her until one of us could hold on no more.
Wait a sec, I'm like that with all my dogs.
I find it shocking, absolutely shocking not everyone feels the same as well. I guess one learns something new every day, huh.
Thank you Angelique for putting it more succinctly than I did. Money, I suppose that just about says it all. Somebody profits from the lax titling standards. And I'm fairly certain one needn't look very far to see who is benefiting.
Good trainers can take bad prospects farther then you would think. Bad trainers can take good prospects and completely ruin them. The combination of good prospects and good trainers generally come out as everybody wants. If Robbin is still here, you note I have said prospects and generally. Thats because one can't control everything. There are simply too many varialables. That being said don't for one minute think that the top trainers just take any dog and make them a champion on a whim. The working lines are prospects only. Prospects, period.
Have I ever been disappointed with a dog? Nah. I always hold on till one of us can hold on more longer.

Randy

First off, I must remove my foot from my mouth...

My Levi is a Working West German Showline. Most all of his ancestry are Sch3's, including the females. Am I upset about this? No, I'm not because I have a dog that can do all that is asked of him. To me this is the best of both worlds. However, I did not realize, I guess because the ones I have seen are SEVERE in conformation, that he is a bit of a roachback. I never really noticed it in him before but with all this talk I've taken a closer look. I can't say that I'm fond of the look in some dogs but thank heavens in Levi it is not pronounced. So, I apologize to the board for discounting this in my dog. I am grateful to say that after an evaluation with my new trainer and much to my relief, that he is quite impressed with my dog. He said his grip is fantastic (he actually hurt the guy on the sleeve and after working with Ivan for a year and raising Malinois' I suppose he would know)and that he has great drive and temperament for the work. He believes his nerves to be solid and the issue with slippery floors a non issue, something that a bit of exposure will take care of. (Levi actually walked through the guys kitchen on his tip toes but on the way out walked normal, this was a great sign). I guess the point is, I got lucky. According to what is being said on the forum on quite a regular basis is that show dogs aren't worth much. This disturbs me because it shouldn't be this way. What a shame for a magnificent breed to be deemed worthless because all of the qualities that made it great are bred out for pomp and circumstance. I feel blessed to know that the dog I have is a good one but I'm sure not every one is quite so lucky. I know I would have loved him regardless of todays outcome but what a bitter disappointment it must be for some to be told their dogs can not do the work that they set out for them to do. I must say, had I not found Leerburg in the first place I might not have acquired enough of an education about the different classes of dog to have paid attention to work ability. I think it's important to serve as an education but only in a way that would be productive for the breed. Saying things in a judgemental way (in spite of reality) can only serve to hurt feelings and cause greater division amongst those that breed. I am thankful for the education that I have acquired and continue to recieve on this forum. Without it, I might be singing a very different tune today. Furthermore and this just to brag..LOL I was told that had my Levi dropped both his "boys" that he would have begged me to train him and show him because he represents what is good in both classes of dog. Ok, I'm done, sorry for the long winded speech.

Robbin,
That must be a slurpie or a dog biscut in your mouth, because it isn't your foot. Sounds like you have a good prospect there and you are justifiably proud thats all. Remember, it's the path, not the end, thats worth while. You've found a life long friend. Enjoy your time together.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

Robbin,
That must be a slurpie or a dog biscut in your mouth, because it isn't your foot.

Nope....it is Levi's Orbee Ball....

Robbin, CONGRATS on a good evaluation. I am proud of you and Levi!!!