Peter -
remember that as Mods we just handle simple things on the forum, trust me when I say that only Ed and Cindy or the office staff would have access to your info, not the Mods.

No mocking meant at all, ok?

If you think that you can rely on strictly positive reinforcment with all dogs and have reliability off leash out in the world you are going to have problems. I try and keep corrections to the minimum but corrections are indeed a part of training. I have a 1 yr old that i'm just starting to train, purely positive would be hilarious to watch with him, he'd figure out that deal in a second and take FULL advantage over the person, that's a fact.

OK to answer your direct ? i do not live in the states.

can i please ask what that would have to do with a debate on the ethics of e-collars usage.

ok has this turned into a sticky subject. Just FYI, the trainer is not opposed to the use of ecollars in the correct hands or for the correct use - what I said is that he finds that too many people tend to use them like a gimmick - just like going to a bigger, harsher bit on a horse - when it's really the rider that needs the training, not the horse. In this case, the "student" has grown to depend on this collar so much that he has the remote in his hand at all times on a small training field in situations where the dog is heeling, or such. As a result, he got trigger happy and hit the button accidently doing a running stand stay causing the dog to down instead. Now the dog who scored a 97 in obedience in Schll is dropping all the time and he has regional finals for his schlll in 2 weeks and has to fix this issue.

I would hope that someone new to an ecollar would take the time to find a trainer that knows how to use one properly instead of just like Peter says - buying one and putting it on their dog and misusing it - causing worse problems to the dog than just "assisting it's learning curve.

Great comments, tho - lots of different views - so much to think about. Hi Will!

Edited by Lynne Peck (02/28/2011 11:07 PM)
Edit reason: misspelling

Al strangely i was speaking to a working BC trainer that took up the use e-collars, he was amazed at the improvement in off-leash control herding 500- 1000+ sheep with 5 - 8 dogs at a time.

he stopped using them - why, his words "it really is a stupid dog that can't figure out when the e-collar is on n when it is off" so unless you are prepared to use it everytime you take your dog out (for smart dogs at least) then you are no better off!!

Peter,
It's not so much of an ethics thing ( and while I strongly disagree with you there, we're each entitled to our own opinion ) but I am always seeing that people that live in countries with more restrictions to general freedoms tend to favor restrictions on items like the e-collar.

I see it so often that I can usually guess when someone is from outside the U.S.
Let me guess - Australia, right?

And actually, on second thought, although you are entitled to your opinion, let's be honest here - you don't really have the experience to have a factual basis for that opinion, you don't use e-collars and you don't think that other trainers should have access to them.
I have been using e-collars since they were the size of a brick back in the 1970's and they're a tool, plain and simple.

A tool can be used for good or evil:
I have a screwdriver and use it to repair my car to keep my job - it's used for good.
I stab it through the back of a man's skull, it's used for evil.
The user determines if it's used for good or misused, the tool is *blameless*.

< waves >
Hi Lynne!

I don't think that is automaticaly true, Peter.

Just like any other collar, if the training is right "collar smart" doesn't matter much in the long run. Of course the dog will probably know whether or not its on, but it won't matter.

If you have a dog that stops listening when he's not waering a prong collar you might think "I have to work on that more.", you would probably thinkthe same with a dog who inly listens to you when you have food.

For some reason when that happens with a remote collar people are quick to throw their hands up and say "Well now he's collar smart!"

When really if the dog learns through the right steps, he will listen.

Plus, even if they do become collar smart, what's it matter? The dog probably wears a collar everyday anyway.

Dogs become "collar wise" when their trainers were lazy and didn't take the time to prep them ( this point was told to us again and again during various Bernhard Flinks seminars ).

Sure, preparing a puppy/young dog to eventually wear an e-collar takes time and planning, but why wouldn't you do this for a future work dog?

thanks for allowing/hosting a rational debate, i think the public debate is good n educational in itself even if no consensus is achieved.

we can't esacpe the fact that good training is good training n bad training is bad training regardless of the tools.

it's just my personal wish that these things were a bit harder to get for the average schmo with no idea looking for a quick fix it, surely that is not too big of an ask given the potential for abuse.