Following your logic we would severely restrict the use of cars. Car accidents kill tons of people.

What makes LE such good dog trainers? Most I've seen are stuck in the dark ages and go to e-collars as the "bigger stick". I wouldn't trust 95% of my unit(military police) with an e-collar.

I still wouldn't support restrictions on e-collars anymore than I would accept "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. We have seen the slippery slope that leads to in other countries and the abomination called California.

Here in America the philosophy is that the freedom to live your life as you choose will be restricted as little as possible. The government is supposed to keep their nose out of your personal life. Police are not a priviledged class. They are given some concessions such as being able to carry a weapon in more places but other than that an off-duty police officer is a common citizen.

 Quote: peter cavallaro

he stopped using them - why, his words "it really is a stupid dog that can't figure out when the e-collar is on n when it is off" so unless you are prepared to use it everytime you take your dog out (for smart dogs at least) then you are no better off!!

This argument goes in reverse too. Traditional compulsion-based trainers will dip their toe in the "positive reinforcement" pool. Many eventually abandon the notion saying "the dog only listens if I have a cookie".

How, as a positive-reinforcement trainer, would you respond to that? The answer would be the same for your herding friend and the e-collars.

Tracy

I must say that even though I do not agree with absolutely everything that either Peter or Cathy G. have said...I really respect the way they both argued their points. :thumbup:

hi all i have learned a lot so thank you all. will also self-educate to know what i am talking about n not be so belligerent based on emotion.

to be clear though i have never said there is a problem with educated n correct use of the tool. hell i would not rule out using one to increase a safety margin on the high drive dog i will be getting mid-year. there will be serious training education on my part before i even pick the tool up i know.

as for the car argument which i think is taking it a bit to a silly extreme, consider that there is strict regulation world-wide on proving you can correctly use a vehicle before you are let loose on the roads its called getting a drivers licence, disregarding the drunk driver example, roads would be far more dangerous if the regulation/licencing did not exist.

someone mentioned about the rights to own a dog - sounds like a great idea we could all name a bunch of people that should not be allowed to own animals of any sort.

my initial training is in radiation technology/safety, eventually couldn't handle seeing empty beds in oncology wards where a teenager was the previous day n crawling down sewers being exposed to doses higher then the legal limit for the public looking for lost sources kind of didn't seem fun.
the general rule there is a technique has to absolutely be proven first through strict controlled experiments, documenation through the roof n regulation - that background has shaped/clouded/scarred my mind set on safety/risk versus public benefit. prolly need to step back a bit when applying that mind set to general life.

"my mind set on safety/risk versus public benefit. prolly need to step back a bit when applying that mind set to general life."

Peter, you come from a very different view point then most of us here in the U.S. - like so much of the world you're a subject instead of a citizen ( which I could never tolerate ), and that colors your view on the world differently than the people in my social group.
Ya'll trade freedom for security, so different strokes for different folks, I guess.

On another note, I hope the floods did not cause too much trouble you or your family. Au has been battered by the weather to a horrible degree, my heart goes out to those affected.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

someone mentioned about the rights to own a dog - sounds like a great idea we could all name a bunch of people that should not be allowed to own animals of any sort.

And are you comfortable with some bureaucrat telling you when you may or may not be ready to own a high drive dog?

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

someone mentioned about the rights to own a dog - sounds like a great idea we could all name a bunch of people that should not be allowed to own animals of any sort.

And are you comfortable with some bureaucrat telling you when you may or may not be ready to own a high drive dog?

That would be a situation just begging for civil disobedience...

Will--that patriotism rings a little hollow in light of your past chortling about disrupting a peaceable assembly of people who had committed no crime at all save espousing an alternate economic viewpoint. Freedom is a great thing when you're the guy holding the gun (or the stink bombs).

I don't want to get into a giant political thing here, as I'm clearly in a very small minority on this site WRT what's great about America, but I think Peter's definitely got the message now, perhaps even a PM or two if my intuition is correct.

 Quote: ross rapoport

Will--that patriotism rings a little hollow in light of your past chortling about disrupting a peaceable assembly of people who had committed no crime at all save espousing an alternate economic viewpoint. Freedom is a great thing when you're the guy holding the gun (or the stink bombs).

I don't want to get into a giant political thing here, as I'm clearly in a very small minority on this site WRT what's great about America, but I think Peter's definitely got the message now, perhaps even a PM or two if my intuition is correct.

Ross,
Every year that they'd hold the May Day parade there would be about 25 to 50k worth of property damage by the marchers/protestors, so they were hardly a "peaceable assembly of people".

And history has repeatedly shown us that there has *never* been a communist society that didn't have massive waves of murder of its people ( oddly...once they'd been disarmed, go figure ) so I have no problem using force to prevent it from happening again.
Communism is "one man, one vote.....once" - please read some history, it's hardly an "alternative economic viewpoint", it's a death sentence.

thanks Will, over 70 people dead within an hours drive of my house n still counting - a lot of concern for foreign workers on the farms who's ID n numbers were kind of kept a secret before flood, they haven't been included in the count because officials aren't even aware how many were here but farmers know they haven't seen many of them again. no doubt bodies will keep turning up for some time.

personally i wasn't directly effected n i have a bunker full of fuel n food and am off the grid anyway. times like that you see the best n worst of human nature.

Barbara; "And are you comfortable with some bureaucrat telling you when you may or may not be ready to own a high drive dog"

FYI, check this out; Sch has been banned here in all except my state - which will prolly soon follow. owning a tug toy can get you in big trouble with police- you can buy/sell them as long as you don't allow a dog to bite on them while you hold the toy in yr hand!! i actaully hide my fav. ME video "power of tug" i bought from Ed, like i am a criminal or something.

i think the laws, JMO/conspiracy theory, started from the GSD show community that didn't like the idea that there ridiculously high priced dogs could be demonstarted by world standards to be a worthless sub-species via the Sch process. yeah crazy stuff. has it stopped Sch/bite sports at all - hell no, its just all going underground at least as afr as training is concerned which is even worse, like prohibition of anything has ever worked anywhere; this totally supports your argument about over -regulation n the nanny state and destroys my own argument - sheesh, in fact i actively oppose the regulation n banning of Sch style sports - never gonna win this either way.

PS we also have about 5 banned breeds of dogs, the funny thing is the most dangerous dog in 2009/10 was not a banned breed it was - ready for it - the JRT. most reported bites through police dept (none lethal) - go figure, i give up.