Quote: Mara Jessup

The article saddens me. But we only know one side of the story. I would like to hear the other (ie, how many dogs have retired out of the program in that period of time?, what type of temperament testing etc do the dogs go through before they decide to euthanize? etc) before I make a final judgment.

Mara has me wondering this too.

I think it is a mistake to not put in high level OB and socialize a working dog- be it military, police, SAR, detection, tracking... whatever.

I also think it is a huge and costly (for dogs and people) mistake to breed working dogs to be anti-social. Social and great ability to work do not have to be seperate. Many superb working malinois in Europe are social- or neutral.

A detection dog working in Iraq (eg.)that is fully trained for detection and on the job, doesn't have time to be trained out of being reactive to goats, kids, motors etc. How about having all these types of things at the training facility for MWDs to train around and neutralize to at a young age? Even a high drive malinois or GSD with good nerves and high drive could learn to become neutral to these distractions. On top of that, wouldn't it help the dog do it's job better if it wasn't distracted by motors/goats/etc? And not stressed by being forced into close contact with people (must happen all the time in the military and on the streets) if it isn't social?

It would seem some trainers think a social dog that enjoys people is weak somehow. I, personally, don't like a nervy-reactive dog. I will do all in my power to choose good genetics and then work on proper socialization to avoid this.

There are ways to house dogs in a less stressful environment than a kennel to avoid amped up spinning and stress behaviors.

If this was how they would live out the remainder of their lives, then I do indeed think that PTS is more humane.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

I think it is a mistake to not put in high level OB and socialize a working dog- be it military, police, SAR, detection, tracking... whatever.

I agree totally, when you have time. A high level OB dog that is well socialized and confident in any working environment takes years to build. Soldiers are getting blown up as we type this. It's a matter of time, or rather, the lack thereof.

I also think it is a huge and costly (for dogs and people) mistake to breed working dogs to be anti-social. Social and great ability to work do not have to be seperate. Many superb working malinois in Europe are social- or neutral.

Most of our dogs come from Europe. I agree that social behavior and great working ability do often go hand in hand. None of these dogs are bred to be specifically anti-social. It is just a product of their environment, and again, due to lack of time and resources to properly socialize a military dog.

A detection dog working in Iraq (eg.)that is fully trained for detection and on the job, doesn't have time to be trained out of being reactive to goats, kids, motors etc. How about having all these types of things at the training facility for MWDs to train around and neutralize to at a young age? Even a high drive malinois or GSD with good nerves and high drive could learn to become neutral to these distractions. On top of that, wouldn't it help the dog do it's job better if it wasn't distracted by motors/goats/etc? And not stressed by being forced into close contact with people (must happen all the time in the military and on the streets) if it isn't social?

Many of our dogs do learn to become neutral to these things while working. Some do not. It depends on many variables, including working conditions, handler experience, sharpness of the dog, too many to list. A perfect training scenario would be to have an Afghan village to train in, complete with local nationals, livestock, feral dogs, feces everywhere, and a firefight going on while you search. This is just not feasible. We are talking about thousands of dogs. Are you going to volunteer your child to run around and be a training aid? Not me

It would seem some trainers think a social dog that enjoys people is weak somehow. I, personally, don't like a nervy-reactive dog. I will do all in my power to choose good genetics and then work on proper socialization to avoid this.

I truly appreciate your sense of responsibility as a breeder, and your commitment to breeding sound, stable dogs. To me, this is the opposite of weak.

There are ways to house dogs in a less stressful environment than a kennel to avoid amped up spinning and stress behaviors.

Can you think of a way to economically do this on a military operating base where space is very limited, resources are minimal at best, and protection of the dogs has to be the main concern? Please understand that mortar rounds do not discriminate between species.

If this was how they would live out the remainder of their lives, then I do indeed think that PTS is more humane.

So the dilemma is this, do you produce 500 dogs today that can effectively find bombs, but have less than stellar OB, and can be reactive at times, or wait for 2 years and turn out the same level of bomb finding ability with better manners?

How many lives will those 2 years cost?

Re: David W, LOL yeah and Fama could have her own padded cell.

Thanks for the reply, David. You know a whole lot more about MWD than I do- for sure.

Do you have a rough idea of the numbers of MWDs used by the US armed forces?

What happens to retired MWD in the US currently?

Also, do the labs used for detection have the same temperment issues due to the way they are housed and raised as the GSd/malinois? I've seen some driven/hyper labs that would go crazy being in a kennel.

If it's all about training up the maximum # of dogs that can do the work, then a warehousing approach is the only way to go, I guess.

I get treating dogs as tools. It just seems (to me- and I have never seen a MWD training faciity) that it wouldn't take that much more time and $$ to provide a the dogs with decent socialization, and with an energy outlet. If the dogs are on base at the kennels going crazy from lack of activity or mental outlet, couldn't they have a large fenced area that you could use for a good game of fetch? And make sure each dog get out once a day- or maybe this already happens and isn't enough.

I'm more familiar with the sled-dog world where there also quite a bit of culling- warehousing type stuff going on. I guess when it's just all about one aspect of performance it's not worth spending time training for socialization or OB past the bare minimum needed to get the job done. I'd have a hard time dealing with dogs this way personally, but I do get it to some extent.

Thanks for you inside view on this. And thanks to you and Fama for your service.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Re: David W, LOL yeah and Fama could have her own padded cell.

The article is sickening and shows who the real animals are.

Maybe it's partially due to the way society is these days. t least here in the US we've become so lawsuit happy that that affects many decisions. I know this was in Britain and the US now has programs to re-home military dogs but I wonder how many more could be rehomed if it wasn't for liability fears.

Of course there will always be those that can only be placed with their handlers and if a handler can't take the dog for some reason, in my opinion, they should be retired to some type of facility where they could live out their lives as a reward for their service. But sadly we don't evern treat our human military very well. And I realize that would not be practical in all cases. That some would have to be pts.

I know I would take the dog home with me. Hard to imagine a handler wouldn't have bonded with the dog and want to do the same, but I'm a single guy, no kids so I would be able to.

Reminds me of a documentary dogs of war on military channel where they trained civilians dogs in Vietnam. When they returned home they had to give the dogs back to the owners, many handlers wanted to keep them but most said no, I think 1 handler got to the dog.
The handlers they interviewed some 15-20 years later for the show were broken hearted and crying telling the story about there best friend, the dog they bonded with.

 Quote: Joe Waddington

Reminds me of a documentary dogs of war on military channel where they trained civilians dogs in Vietnam. When they returned home they had to give the dogs back to the owners,

That was WWII, not Viet Nam. When we left Viet Nam, most the dogs were left behind. The current "retirement" system for MWD's is due, in large part, to organizations such as Viet Nam Dog Handlers Association. The members of that organization have never forgotten what the government did to our partners and have worked hard to affect change.

DFrost