I have a Doberman who is almost five years old. He bloated last month and we had a gastropexy performed. I want to start feeding him an all raw meat diet. I have been doing a lot of research, but there are still a few things I am not sure about.

1. I try to avoid eating factory farmed meat myself. I would like to do this for the dog as well, but I am having trouble staying within my price limit. Is it o.k. to give the dog raw food from the grocery store? Am I being too paranoid?

2. Finding a variety of organ meats has been difficult. I can easily get chicken livers and beef kidneys, but is this enough variety for organ meats?

3. What kind of treats can you give while eating raw? In general, is anything fairly soft and not biscuit-like o.k. (for example, Zukes training treats)? What about cows ears?

1. I think everyone has to let their own conscience and pocketbook be their guide on this one. I am 100% comfortable feeding my pack "grocery-store" meat. It's sold as fit for human consumption, which is already way ahead of the quality of meat used in commercial pet food. Perhaps if I were made of money, I'd buy the dogs only grass-fed bison and organic, free-range chicken. But I'm not, so I don't.

2. Two organ sources isn't terrible. But I bet with out too much trouble you could also add beef or calves' liver. That's a pretty common item I see in stores. Turkey giblets are also out there.

3. I usually only use treats for training, so for me, the most important thing about a treat is it's value--not its nutrition. I use string cheese, hunks of hot dog, jerkey, cat food kibble, nearly anything. All in tiny, tiny pieces. It's just a taste, not a big contributor to calories or nutrition. A raw diet doesn't have to be a 100% strict thing. My raw-fed dogs still get a potato chip or pizza crust now and again, and lick the ice cream bowl as often as they can. They are still dogs.

A cow's ear sound like a chew toy, not a treat (to me.) Which would be okay, I suppose, as an occasional thing.

First off..I'm not totally sure that feeding a raw diet will guarantee no future bloat issues. Feeding raw is a choice for many reasons but I don't think it is a bloat preventative. There are less dog bloating on raw diets...but is that truely because of diet or simply due to the fast that there are more dog eatinging kibble then raw. I don't know.

I have fed a raw diet to my dogs for almost 9 years (all their lives)& would never change that, as I feel that it is the healthiest way to feed them. I also, like Tracy, feed 'regular' food...the same that I would & do eat. I eat the chicken Qrts & make soup stock with the backs & necks & ground meats that I get at the wholesaler.

If you have the storage (UPRIGHT OR CHEST FREEZER)space the best deals are purchasing from wholesale restraunt supplier. But you need to be able to buy 40lb cases of food. I get a case of fresh chicken backs or necks for $12 ($.30 LB) Fresh chicken leg Qtrs for $18 a case. 10lb rolls of ground turkey for $.89 LB. Plus heart & gizzards, ground pork, ground beef & turkey necks, buffalo, lamb & other items...but you get the idea.

Chicken & turkey hearts & gizzards are muscle meats & are at regular grocery stores along with beef heartsa, kidneys & livers. Also pork kidney & livers. They also have turkey necks & chicken backs in some stores. You need to check out the different stores.

For treats I use mostly Zukes & turkey hot dogs, but also the liver biscotti treats, blueberries,greenbeens what ever my dogs like. Like Tracy stated...you are only feeding tiny bits but for a dog that has to 'count calaries' some berries & veggies that they like can be added to the treat mix. I don't feed cheese because my female doesn't tollerate it well but my male likes & tollerates it.

I personally don't feed 'ears' of any kind as usually theya re 'treated' in some way. I do however feed bully sticks, especially to pups & young dogs. Older one chew them up very quickly & they have getten expensive in the last 6 years.

Eggs are also another protein source along with fish.

You asked about organ meat: If you use chicken backs as an RMB, you'll have that "bonus" of the attached kidneys. Of course, this isn't enough by itself, but added to chicken and beef liver and beef kidneys, that's a nice variety. (Don't forget how small a part of the diet the organ meat is .... I give about 5% or a little more of the diet as organ meat.)

Don't forget to introduce the organ meat very gradually. If you have read up here, you know that starting with one item (chicken backs are a good starter) and adding the rest item by item is a great way to avoid diarrhea, and avoiding it is FAR better than fixing it.

Anne mentioned eggs. They are a great way to add variety AND cut cost. If you cook them and discard the shells, then they can be counted as part of the "muscle meat" (boneless) part of the diet.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

You asked about organ meat: If you use chicken backs as an RMB, you'll have that "bonus" of the attached kidneys. Of course, this isn't enough by itself, but added to chicken and beef liver and beef kidneys, that's a nice variety. (Don't forget how small a part of the diet the organ meat is .... I give about 5% or a little more of the diet as organ meat.)

Don't forget to introduce the organ meat very gradually. If you have read up here, you know that starting with one item (chicken backs are a good starter) and adding the rest item by item is a great way to avoid diarrhea, and avoiding it is FAR better than fixing it.

Anne mentioned eggs. They are a great way to add variety AND cut cost. If you cook them and discard the shells, then they can be counted as part of the "muscle meat" (boneless) part of the diet.

Connie, why do cooked eggs w/o shells count as muscle meat over raw eggs?

Well, I really just meant that you might feed enough of them cooked to "count" as anything. A raw one would be a limited event.

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24177&page=1#251060

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31648&page=1#352873

Connie will have a better answer, but I'll chime in with what I understand about feeding eggs.

First of all, the shell. If a dog is already getting RMBs, the shell would likely provide too much calcium. Shells could be fed instead of bones, but not generally with bones.

Raw vs. cooked:

An occasional raw egg in the diet isn't going to cause any problems. Mine get a raw egg every now and then as a treat because they like them.

But if one wanted to include eggs as a considerable portion of the diet, it's better to cook the whites. Raw egg whites contain biotin (a vitamin) along with another chemical called avidin, which chemically binds to biotin making the vitamin unavailable when eaten in the raw state. The combined molecule simply passes through offering no nutritional benefit. There's even some indication that the amount of avidin in raw egg whites even "grabs up" some of the biotin in the egg yolk--potentially leaving someone (or dog) who ate lots of whole raw eggs biotin deficient. (Plus, there's simply the waste of eating a potentially healthy protein source like egg whites and not getting the full nutritional benefit of it.)

By cooking the egg whites, the biotin/avidin chemical bond is broken, and everything's fine.

Raw yolks don't have this issue. So one could "soft cook" the egg until just the whites are set, leaving a raw yolk...or simply cook the whole egg.

Again, this is talking about potential deficiencies in a raw-egg-heavy diet. With a backyard flock of layers, mine eat quite a few eggs, so I cook them.

Cooked eggs can be treated exactly like muscle meat. If a normal meal would be, for example, a chicken back and 6 oz. of hamburger meat, you could serve 6 oz. of cooked egg instead. It's an easy, economical way to add variety on the muscle meat side of the diet.

That's my 2 cents worth!

Thanks Tracy for that explanation! Don't know why I hadn't run across that info before. I don't serve very many eggs, but Im going to cook em and use em now!! So much cheaper than meat where I live!

Thanks, also, Connie for the links - very informative.

Thank you everyone for the responses. I especially appreciate the discussion about eggs because I can get those from local farms very easily. I know that raw will not guarantee that he won't bloat again, but I will feel much safer feeding him that then I will with kibble.