Sean McNeely wrote 08/04/2016 08:57 AM Question about Pack Structure #401640 - 08/04/2016 08:57 AM
Sean McNeely Webboard User Reg: 07-26-2016 Posts: 9 Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC Offline	If a person is really sick, weak or feeble will the dog assume the role of pack leader, in other words can they detect that a person is not fit to be a pack leader if they are sick for a long time, could the dog take over that position? Sean
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Christina Lockard wrote 08/04/2016 10:02 AM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Sean McNeely ] #401643 - 08/04/2016 10:02 AM
Christina Lockard Webboard User Reg: 06-09-2016 Posts: 48 Loc: Kentucky Offline	A few years ago, my husband went through treatments that left him very weak and away from home for a almost a year. When we returned, my alpha male - who had become attached to my husband, welcomed him with no issues. He was still very weak and sick. But they had a close bond before his absence. As a matter of fact, during a poor dog management moment ( nod to Bob!) two of his pups knocked my husband over during some rough play. My male moved over him immediately and scolded the two younger dogs strongly enough that they quit playing. My thought then would be that it depends on any previous or existing relationship, and of course temperament.
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Anne Jones wrote 08/04/2016 10:33 AM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Sean McNeely ] #401644 - 08/04/2016 10:33 AM
Anne Jones Webboard User Reg: 04-29-2004 Posts: 3825 Loc: Northeast Offline	Dup post MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Anne Jones wrote 08/04/2016 10:32 AM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Sean McNeely ] #401645 - 08/04/2016 10:32 AM
Anne Jones Webboard User Reg: 04-29-2004 Posts: 3825 Loc: Northeast Offline	I don't see that the dog would act any differently. If you are a strong leader in their eyes your being injured should not matter. Leadership is more in their perception of you in their eyes as the power & force that keeps order with fairness etc rather than you physically overpowering your dog. You are overthinking the idea of leadership. MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Christina Stockinger wrote 08/04/2016 12:12 PM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Sean McNeely ] #401653 - 08/04/2016 12:12 PM
Christina Stockinger Webboard User Reg: 01-23-2015 Posts: 1619 Loc: Brazil, Bahia Offline	I'm nowadays absolutely convinced of what Christina and Anne wrote. I myself had to put my ideas about leadership upside down. I had completely wrong ideas about being the dominant one, as well about socialization. I'm still on the way, but my mindset has changed completly. What counts for me primarily is the relationship. This does of course does not contradict with establishing the necessary rules, nor with management in general. If someone is sick, but has established all this, the dog will know. If someone's sick and has not yet been able to establish all this, I'm convinced he can still achieve this provided he understands dog training or/and has help from experienced people. Dog's are too smart, they learn to distinguish. “If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs, then you are a leader” – Rudyard Kipling
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Candi Campbell wrote 08/04/2016 12:22 PM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Christina Lockard ] #401654 - 08/04/2016 12:22 PM
Candi Campbell Webboard User Reg: 03-28-2013 Posts: 1571 Loc: Offline	Quote: Christina Lockard A few years ago, my husband went through treatments that left him very weak and away from home for a almost a year. When we returned, my alpha male - who had become attached to my husband, welcomed him with no issues. He was still very weak and sick. But they had a close bond before his absence. As a matter of fact, during a poor dog management moment ( nod to Bob!) two of his pups knocked my husband over during some rough play. My male moved over him immediately and scolded the two younger dogs strongly enough that they quit playing. My thought then would be that it depends on any previous or existing relationship, and of course temperament. IMHO, "leader of the pack" is a POSITION comprised of Both psychological AND physical Components... Pack Dynamics (rank/status of each Canine and Human member of the group hierarchy/structure) is a FLUID INTERACTION that definitely can & sometimes will Change under Fluctuating conditions... Every dog at all times in ANY given situation ALWAYS knows Who's in Charge -- Certain dogs will "take advantage" of an owner's psychological OR physical Failure to Perform their leadership role ... Other dogs will "rise to the occasion" as Second in Command temporarily functioning as the boss during their owner's Lapse in Leadership ability, so as to maintain Orderly Conduct within the unit. This is not "anthropomorphism" on my part, but is Pack Preservation behavior observable in canid society world-wide
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Mike Arnold wrote 08/04/2016 04:56 PM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Candi Campbell ] #401659 - 08/04/2016 04:56 PM
Mike Arnold Webboard User Reg: 07-09-2004 Posts: 1344 Loc: CNY Offline	Anthropomorphism. Now that is a word dog owners ought to fully understand. Too many seem to believe their dog is human, with the intellectual capacity of a human, and the sensibilities of a human. Alas. As an aside, not really relevant to shedding light on the original issue, on a lark I shaved my head and beard off. Afterwards I entered the room with the dogs and there was some initial confusion until I uttered 'Come.' Then a smell or two to confirm who I was, and the voice was indeed me, and all was well. As others have opined over the years, brute force doesn't train a dog. How the dog is trained establishes a relationship bond between person and dog, in my ever so humble opinion. And that developed relationship is in place for interaction in a continuum or interruptions. I'm pretty sure. Been my experience. Mike A. "I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin." Hondo, played by John Wayne
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Candi Campbell wrote 08/04/2016 06:20 PM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Mike Arnold ] #401661 - 08/04/2016 06:20 PM
Candi Campbell Webboard User Reg: 03-28-2013 Posts: 1571 Loc: Offline	Quote: Mike Arnold Anthropomorphism. Now that is a word dog owners ought to fully understand. Too many seem to believe their dog is human, with the intellectual capacity of a human, and the sensibilities of a human. Alas. As an aside, not really relevant to shedding light on the original issue, on a lark I shaved my head and beard off. Afterwards I entered the room with the dogs and there was some initial confusion until I uttered 'Come.' Then a smell or two to confirm who I was, and the voice was indeed me, and all was well. As others have opined over the years, brute force doesn't train a dog. How the dog is trained establishes a relationship bond between person and dog, in my ever so humble opinion. And that developed relationship is in place for interaction in a continuum or interruptions. I'm pretty sure. Been my experience. IMHO, typical examples of Anthropomorphism would be: "Our dog obeys BECAUSE he LOVES us"... "Our dog LOVES us BECAUSE we PET him"... Examples of the Fluid Nature of Pack Dynamics: The "alpha" pup from Litter A when placed into Litter B, may be its "omega" pup... An owner who is normally "on top of" their Leadership Demeanor & Function, may become temporarily Preoccupied & Distracted by an emergency or may unexpectedly become incapacitated by the sudden onset of an Illness or Injury -- A certain dog in the pack may "take advantage" of any Lapse in Leadership to challenge the status quo by Breaking known Rules ... Whereas another dog in the pack may "rise to the occasion" by Enforcing known Rules over any misbehaving group members. I believe it is not uncommon for this sort of thing to occur in the packs of otherwise experienced & accomplished dog owners under such circumstances, whether as Preventable Mistakes or by Unavoidable Accidents wherein nature takes its own course, is all I'm saying.
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Bob Scott wrote 08/04/2016 10:54 PM Re: Question about Pack Structure [Re: Sean McNeely ] #401662 - 08/04/2016 10:54 PM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	Candi said "An owner who is normally "on top of" their Leadership Demeanor & Function, may become temporarily Preoccupied & Distracted by an emergency or may unexpectedly become incapacitated by the sudden onset of an Illness or Injury -- A certain dog in the pack may "take advantage" of any Lapse in Leadership to challenge the status quo by Breaking known Rules ... Whereas another dog in the pack may "rise to the occasion" by Enforcing known Rules over any misbehaving group members". I agree with this and I wold add that HOW the "pack leader" controls the dog can have an effect on how the "pack" responds. I think it would take a very serious dog that lacks clear thinking may create a problem but the vast majority of dogs will either protect or do nothing but sit there and lick the persons face. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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