Hello all,

I have a 6 month old female Aussie. She's completed her basic obedience class, and is half way through her Advanced 1 class. She's a very happy, playful dog, and she's very smart. She's learning her obedience commands very quickly, and is one of the best in her class.

Her problem is with her recall. If she has a leash or long line on, and she knows we're in training mode, her recall is excellent. But take the leash off, and she considers the recall to be optional. She will happily blow me off at least 50% of the time if she knows I have no way of correcting her.

So I decided to give an e-collar a try. I went with a PetSafe model that has a 400 yard range and 8 stim levels from the transmitter. I know this isn't one of the brands commonly recommended here (Dogtra and Tri Tronics), but it seems like a quality product that should meet my needs. I tried it on myself before I put it on the dog. I couldn't feel setting 1 at all. Setting 2 was mildly annoying, setting 3 was fairly annoying, and I didn't want to go any higher than that.

I then started training the dog with the e-collar, using the Avoidance Training/3-Step Introduction method that I researched online. This seemed to be working quite well for the first week, and her recall was quite good even when off leash.

But then starting yesterday, she began blowing me off with the e-collar stim too. Per my research, I started increasing the stim level instead of raising my voice. Well, I'll tell you what, I made it all the way up to level 8! I know she could feel the stim because I could see her neck muscles twitching, but she wouldn't budge. I even trimmed her neck hair to make sure I was getting good contact, but it made no difference (which I didn't expect, since she doesn't have a super thick coat).

This has me very frustrated. I can't believe that she can be so stubborn and dominant that she's willing to tolerate a maximum setting stim.

I look forward to any advice that you can provide.

Thanks in advance!

Steve

Sorry I don't train using avoidance.

Randy, can you please suggest a different approach for me to try?

Thanks,

Steve

You are not going to find support for e-collar avoidance training on this board.


This:
"She will happily blow me off at least 50% of the time if she knows I have no way of correcting her" indicates a lack of foundation work.

It can be remedied.

How did you train the recall? I think you will get lots of help here on going back and training it properly, maybe with a different word for your command if the word you use now has been tainted.

 Quote: Steve Goldstein

Randy, can you please suggest a different approach for me to try?

Thanks,

Steve

Not answering for Randy, but how did you teach the recall?

I didn't use the "come" command because that's for when I want her to formally come to me and sit facing me right in front of my feet. Instead, I used the command "here", which is when I want her to approach me but don't really care if she comes to a stop.

The approach I used (after finding the lowest stim setting that got her attention--her working stim level) was I would press the continuous stim button just before I said "Kiley, here!" Then I'd release the button as soon as she started moving in my direction. I did this initially with her tied to a long line, so I could keep control in case something unpredictable happened. I repeated this approach, waiting for the dog to get distracted before pressing the button and saying "Kiley, here!". Before long, she learned that approaching me is what turned off the stim.

This was working so well that I was even able to take her for walks through the woods off lead and could get her to come to me using the "here" command.

But yesterday she decided that she didn't care about the stim anymore, and now I don't trust her to obey the command or the stim.

Actually, what I meant was how you taught the dog the command before finding the escape-training advice and the e-collar.

At this time, how were you teaching it:

"If she has a leash or long line on, and she knows we're in training mode, her recall is excellent. But take the leash off, and she considers the recall to be optional. She will happily blow me off at least 50% of the time if she knows I have no way of correcting her." ..... (Before "So I decided to give an e-collar a try.")

I'd sink a few bucks in Ed's E Collar training vid and start from the very beginning. I would bet the dog doesn't quite understand why she's being corrected or where the correction is coming from. I can't speak for the quality of Petsafe training collars. I've had great luck using DogTra. As for stim levels, I dialed in as Ed directed where the stim was just perceptible by Erika and started training. After training I tried the collar on myself and I cried like a little girl. Like many working/sport dogs my two GSDs have a very high pain tolerance so you may be under equipped. Again I highly recommend getting Ed's DVD

 Quote: steve goldstein

I only used the "here" command when I started using the e-collar and the avoidance training. I have not used treats when teaching "here". Just the stim, the command, and lots of praise when she complies.

Then how was the dog taught what "here" means? (She wasn't.)

May I suggest that the dog has had no training for the "here" command? (Let's set aside the "come" command for now.)

It would be great for both of you if you would start over with "here."

Want some detailed threads? I can promise you that if you put in the foundation work, you are going to do a lot better than "50%" compliance.

May I also suggest (strongly) that you watch Ed's video on using the e-collar?
http://leerburg.com/318.htm By the time you are ready for it in your training, you will have the video waiting.