About the recall and proofing it against gradually increasing attractions and distractions ... I'm hoping for foundation discussion for a deer-chasing farm dog.

A dog chasing deer is vulnerable not only to everything else that can kill a dog running loose, but added danger from being shot.

It's one thing to say "the e-collar is not a fixit tool to replace foundation training" .... what I'm hoping is that we can build on that. I know several (more than several) board members who have trained well their prey-driven dogs, and I was hoping for some tips.

Also, I know that many of us own and have watched this: http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=916 , and mention of this DVD belongs in a recall thread, IMO. I do really want to point out here how inexpensive it is, for so important a command. The foundation work is not skimmed over. It's an hour well spent, and it adds very little to the cost of an e-collar.

In fact, this DVD, coming from another perspective of e-collar use, is also only $25 when watched "on demand," is also only $25. http://leerburg.com/318.htm





I was hoping, though, to talk about the fundamentals of recall training, including solid proofing against gradually increasing distraction.




ETA:

From the e-collar thread: “ ... "it really sounds like he could benefit from a lot of self control work, NILIF and physical boundaries - out of sight out of mind. Revoke his privileges and treat him like a puppy again. He doesn't have a choice to chase critters off. Chasing begets chasing so it just adds to his territorial behavior and blowing you off" .... and the achievement of "“a rock solid recall, and the dog knows what he is supposed to do 100%.”"





Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/14/2013 01:14 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thanks for the tip. Bought the video. watched a little.

We have lots of work to do now!

He's been at my side since the deer event.

Pinker doesn't think too much of this new intimacy with Mr. Outdoor dog, but he'll get over it.

Betty, has Pinker ever caught up with the deer or made a kill on any other critters? That can really cause a stronger desire for the chase. If not then it's just a matter of it being a distraction. A HUGE distraction but a breakable habit non the less.
As mentioned above, treating him like a green pup is the start. From there it's a matter of Pinker seeing you as the greatest thing on the planet.
I don't believe the e-collar is an absolute necessity but that obviously depends on Pinker's connection with you. Ideally you should work with him independent of Mr. Outdoor dog.

Basic puppy recall rules.
Don't attempt to call the dog when it's off lead, distracted or in any situation that you even think the pup wont come.
Always reward (based on what the dog likes)when you do call the dog.
NEVER call the dog to you for a correction even if it just killed you fav lamb. The dog relates reward or correction to the very last thing it did. What was the last thing it did? It came to you.
With very young pups under 12-13 wks old I usually keep Cherrioes in my shirt/treat pocket. Pups at this young age want to be with mom or the pack. That now means the owner.
I would do this when walking in the woods. If they got distracted I would step behind a tree. They quickly realize that I'm gone and when I see them looking for me I would step out, call their name and they'd come running. Great excitement and reward then.
Obviously this doesn't necessarily apply to Pinker but the principal does. You want the dog to believe coming to you is the absolutely fav thing it can do.
I don't use e-collars. Never have. They can be a great tool but they are also, IMHO, the most abused tool in the dog training tool box.
I can honestly say that I've never had a dog refuse a recall and I could stop any of my hunt terriers when they were running inches off a bunnies butt. Same with deer.

What is the opinion of members on this board about: do some dogs have such a high prey-drive that it can't be completely contained--at least reliably?

This is a timeless topic. I've read a lot about it...have had a couple of high-prey dogs.

Bob's post is gospel on the subject and a fairly common approach for even the most marginally educated owner. Yet...the problem exists. So...is it that some dogs regardless of training simply cannot overcome the need to chase/grab, even if they improve with training? Some people suggest this. I don't know.

As for e-collars, there are some dogs whose drive is amped by a prong (and even flat-leash-aggressive), so if the conversation is about dogs reluctant to get called off the chase (even though sometimes reliable), maybe it can include conversations about dogs who "defy" the gospel--and also try to address possibilities why they do (as opposed to how to try to prevent an ingrained behavior).

That was hard to explain. Hope someone understands it.

Just to be clear, it's my 80 lb English Shepherd, 18 months old who is on the deer.

The Pinker is Mr. Peabody, never does anything wrong anymore! He even sat close to me today.

The English shepherd, Laddy, has a great recall unless it's a deer. I can call him off stock. He is off lead and called back, or called to me, probably 50 times per day, 1/3rd of the time rewarded with food.

He would love to chase cars and will if not held. He will quiver on his "sit" and might bolt away from you to chase if a strange vehicle pulls down the driveway.



So I have just become super vigilant, we are doing more training. Sometimes I just put him away. I put him away around 4:00 pm in the evening when the deer come out.

I want to try an electric collar to attempt to break him of running off beyond my property lines, a thing he as only done twice to my knowledge, always with a deer.

Short of chaining him up or kennelling him I don't know any other thing to try.

... do some dogs have such a high prey-drive that it can't be completely contained--at least reliably?


Betty, it's good that you have bought one of the e-collar videos. Especially with a dog who has already done this, any use of the e-collar without very careful prep is potentially ineffective but also potentially dangerous (as in, the dog running through the e-collar stim in the face of such an overwhelming attraction/distraction). And this dog has now rehearsed/reinforced blowing off the recall.

I don't know if the e-collar is the answer for the dog who already bolts after deer and also cars.

For me, I would probably put him up every afternoon against the deer, and I'd probably start working on the recall against the cars. I'd probably not allow any vehicle to leave the driveway without this dog being contained or on a line.

But I'll sure be interested in other responses.


(Disclaimer: I do train the recall often, but I'm not a big user of e-collars, so my opinion of whether it will work after the dog is carefully trained is a very e-collar-inexperienced one.)

ETA
I've also never had a dog without a reliably-trained recall (with no e-collar). Many were/are not drivey at all, but I do know others with all high-drive dogs who have never had an unreliable recall.

Betty, I realized my mixup with names almost as soon as I posted.

"As for dogs with such high prey that they can't be completely contained reliably".
I've owned some off the wall drivey terriers and have never seen that issue. I think a dog can be very high drive and still be clear headed to commands. The drive is just one factor.
My super handler soft GSD is a Tasmanian devil on crack most of the time but I can shut him down with an evil eye. His recall is bullet proof and he comes in like a rocket no matter if it's meal time, a simple "here", a formal "front" Or I just say "hey buddy".

In the present situation, Bob, would you put up this dog every day at deer-time?

Maybe work up (slowly) to cars as a major distraction (with a line!)? This isn't a puppy any more.



I was saying recently that "proofing" the recall sometimes seems to me like a word a lot of owners never even heard before.