Because two of my dogs like to bolt out, if the door opens just a bit, I've proofed the Stays in different situations.

Later I increased the difficulty by opening the sliding door (which makes quite a loud noise) near to them. In this situation they are fixed on a tree with a line long enough to bolt out quite far, but not run away.

Then I step outside and make all possible foolish things to distract them and tempt them to come out Of course I always return after a while, mark and reward. What surprised me extremly is that they didn't even try a single time to bolt out, although they had the possibility for an average of 5 minutes (randomly, Bob!)

1.Are they aware they are fixed on a long line and keep the sit stay just for this reason?

2.Is it possible to build with further training a kind of an invisible barrier for them?

3.Could this kind of training and proofing the Stay be counterproductive in any way?

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

Because two of my dogs like to bolt out, if the door opens just a bit, I've proofed the Stays in different situations.

Later I increased the difficulty by opening the sliding door (which makes quite a loud noise) near to them. In this situation they are fixed on a tree with a line long enough to bolt out quite far, but not run away.

Then I step outside and make all possible foolish things to distract them and tempt them to come out Of course I always return after a while, mark and reward. What surprised me extremly is that they didn't even try a single time to bolt out, although they had the possibility for an average of 5 minutes (randomly, Bob!)

1.Are they aware they are fixed on a long line and keep the sit stay just for this reason?

2.Is it possible to build with further training a kind of an invisible barrier for them?

3.Could this kind of training and proofing the Stay be counterproductive in any way?

While we're waiting for our various expert trainers to weigh in on your questions, I'll just post my personal experience, which is given only as an Amateur PET Owner:

1. My dogs ALWAYS know if they're On a secured leash or NOT, so I train "threshold protocol" On-Lead first, and then proof for Off-Lead compliance with an E-COLLAR (since bolting out an Exterior Door at my house would be a LIFE or DEATH act of Disobedience)...

2. Well, an ecollar works like an Invisible Leash

3. Not exactly sure I understand your question on this one, sorry, Christina.

Thanks,Candi. To learn from the experience of an amateur dog owner is very valuable too, especially if the answer is so clear as yours.

Yes that's what I feared, that they are aware of that leash. That means that my exercises only teach them to wait and nothing more.

Fortunately they are not human aggressiv and not dog aggressive outside of their territory. Nevertheless, when they bolt out I'm always very preoccupied. They could kill a cat or cock or another animal that flees (a cock and a hen they already killed once). They also could have an accident on the street and my greatest nightmare is that a child could react in a manner the dogs misunderstand. I do not really think they would attack. But this is merely my impression. How could I be sure.

I also thought about a high fence around the door, kind of a sluice. It would be ugly and complicate going in and out by car. But I could live with this. I absolutely want to avoid that anything bad happens.

An E-collar seems to be a plausible solution. I think LB has DVDs or articles about this too. I would have to learn how to train with this, but it would surely be worth to invest the time. Do you think - if applied correctly - this would have a 100% safety effect?

About question three: I thought that perhaps my way of proofing the stay - (doing crazy things like dancing, jumping, rolling on the floor etc., throwing balls or food outside in order to create temptation for them to bolt out) -
is perhaps too stupid a way of proofing and could confuse the dogs.

Thanks so much for answering!

Bob actually recommends acting a right fool in order to proof the stay, so you're in good company

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

Thanks,Candi. To learn from the experience of an amateur dog owner is very valuable too, especially if the answer is so clear as yours.

Yes that's what I feared, that they are aware of that leash. That means that my exercises only teach them to wait and nothing more.

Fortunately they are not human aggressiv and not dog aggressive outside of their territory. Nevertheless, when they bolt out I'm always very preoccupied. They could kill a cat or cock or another animal that flees (a cock and a hen they already killed once). They also could have an accident on the street and my greatest nightmare is that a child could react in a manner the dogs misunderstand. I do not really think they would attack. But this is merely my impression. How could I be sure.

I also thought about a high fence around the door, kind of a sluice. It would be ugly and complicate going in and out by car. But I could live with this. I absolutely want to avoid that anything bad happens.

An E-collar seems to be a plausible solution. I think LB has DVDs or articles about this too. I would have to learn how to train with this, but it would surely be worth to invest the time. Do you think - if applied correctly - this would have a 100% safety effect?

About question three: I thought that perhaps my way of proofing the stay - (doing crazy things like dancing, jumping, rolling on the floor etc., throwing balls or food outside in order to create temptation for them to bolt out) -
is perhaps too stupid a way of proofing and could confuse the dogs.

Thanks so much for answering!

You are doing everything RIGHT so far, Christina Training & Proofing ON-LEAD first is absolutely correct, so far as I know...

Once they are consistently compliant On-Lead, then "graduating" to E-Collar Obedience is extremely QUICK & EASY...

I really love Ed Frawley's original "Remote Collar Training for PET Owners" http://leerburg.com/318.htm though others swear by the Michael Ellis ones (which are also GREAT just not my favorite, no offense at all to M.E.)...

I have a Mini Educator e-collar http://leerburg.com/ET300.htm (I actually bought the "Lady" model so I could get it with a leopard-spotted cover to match my Dobies' coloring of black & rust, LOL).

I don''t like the idea of tying the long line to a tree outside where the dog has to run a bit before it's corrected.

Ideally the dog should be corrected the split second it crosses the door's threshold.

What I do for a solid "stay" is to (I'm gonna bore everyone again)

"RANDOMLY" randomly return to the dog and reward for the stay and "RANDOMLY" go to different distances from the door and "RANDOMLY" add harder distractions.

The randomness in time/distance and distractions is what keeps the dog from anticipating it's release.

Get a solid sit on time and distance before you add the door to the equation. That door is one big distraction.

Thanks, Bob. That's what I actually do, more or less. I react immediately, when they break the stay and the threshold is 2m before the door. The long line I used because I don't trust them yet really and I used such a length, that - if they tried to bolt out - I can reach to the line, so that they never will know, where the end of the line is. But I see your point. As they are probably anyway aware they're on a line it doesn't make more sense than training a stay without long line. And for not letting them bolt out, I will have to find a safer solution.

Bob, you certainly don't bore anyone. Did you think this because I made a joke about "randomly". I wrote this to show that I really estimate that important tip and that I really have written this in bold into my mind. Go on repeating it. It is so essential, it can only help to remind people of this.

I know Kristin. I have alway recieved great advices from Bob. Some I've written in my mind, other I've printed out and nailed on my doggy wall!

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

I know Kristin. I have alway recieved great advices from Bob. Some I've written in my mind, other I've printed out and nailed on my doggy wall!

Christina, you get the Gold Star for being an A-PLUS really responsible dog owner

Work on time, distance & increased level of distraction all separately & over an extended period of time. Work on time ,,,when that is solid...Work on increasing distance from the dog,then when they are both solid work to increase the level of distractions. Eventually take the "show on th road" & really increase it all in many locations.

Adding more than one at a time will confuse & stress the dog. And most likely end up taking a much longer time to get any of them solid.