In response to Sam and Lori;

Sam, you might be pleased with the progress that I've made with Sadie. I haven't been able to completely erase the faults from the foundation that was laid in the 2.5 yrs prior to my adopting her, but we have desensitized her to the point of being manageable. I can walk her next to other dogs, down her within three feet of another dog, and train her in the presence of another dog. I can verbally prevent her from chasing cats, dogs, rabbits, etc, and can call her off of a chase if she bolts before I spy her quarry. We've worked on these things exhaustingly since that session with you. She will not violate her invisible boundaries, even when the neighbor's cats sit twenty feet away giving her the "Na na na na".

Lori, the reasons I still have reactivity issues with my dog are partially obvious but still partly unknown. There are some temperament issues (which would be individual, moreso than breed-related), which seem to be compounded by some environmental conditioning that she was exposed to in her previous home. She has some natural propensity toward being an alpha female, but I also get the sense that she was allowed to bully her packmates. She has very high prey drive, in the form of hunt drive, so she perceives smaller animals as prey.

Desensitizing has helped greatly, but we are not to a point where she can meet-and-greet other dogs. If she doesn't immediately show aggression, she will try to t-up or mount the other dog, which is an attempt to establish dominance and is usually not greeted favorably by other dogs. I can down/stay her near another dog, but her focus is full-out on that other dog; ears, nose, and eyes full-forward and quivering. Even were I to find BAT or another protocol decisive in neutralizing her reactivity, I will never be comfortable letting my guard down with this dog, or trusting her to roam freely in the presence of other animals.



NOTE: Duane moved his BAT discussion to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/20/2013 01:51 PM)
Edit reason: note added

I'm so happy to hear that Duane! I've seriously got a big grin on my face. I was always impressed with your dedication to your dog despite her quirks. Many people who love dogs as equally as we all do would simply give up.
I think BAT may help, since you mention that her focus is on the other dog. If anything, you could just read over it and then decide 'nope, probably not' and continue with what you've been doing to manage her. Some dogs really are dog aggressive/reactive and cannot be trusted. That's okay, because that's the beauty of individuality. We love them for who they are, and not because we want robots with input-output.

I can't say enough good about BAT, since ambi and I started working on it and the relaxation protocol she has become a different dog.







NOTE: Duane moved his BAT discussion to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/20/2013 01:52 PM)
Edit reason: note added

This is a great post. My two adult GSDs are both reactive in certain situations. They basically have absolutely no tolerance for rude dogs...the rude, off leash dog is the worst offender, followed by dogs who try to fence fight. My male was attacked by another dog as a youngster and he needs a good amount of personal space.

I can take both of these dogs to dog classes or for walks with unfamiliar dogs with no problem. They are routinely exposed to other dogs without issue, yet I know they will both fight another dog so it is a management kind of thing.

On a side note, they go many places with me, but I avoid the pet stores at all costs. Too many idiots.

 Quote: Lori Hall

As the owner of a golden who loves people so much that even when the vet hurts him, he still kisses her, I am ignorant when it comes to the causes of dogs being aggressive (and I've encountered a lot of them while out walking Kase). I always thought it was the owners fault due to either no training, bad training, or they were taught to be aggressive.

This thread is interesting to me because if I'm reading it correctly, there are many of you, who I know are excellent owners and trainers, and still have aggressive dogs. So is it something that can be part of a dog's own personality that you have no control over, even with the best of training? and is that tendency in certain breeds? or can it be in any dog, it just depends on that dog's makeup?

I think this is one of the most informative posts on this thread so far. Understanding where the "other side" is coming from is extremely important in most endeavors.

My dog was a fearful puppy, but is growing into a fairly confident adult. It's taken quite a bit of work, but now he is remarkably non-reactive to other dogs and even wants to play most times he meets one. However, as much as I know he's not the one to try to pick a fight, I also know he would likely finish one. He has little tolerance for rudeness, particularly from smaller dogs. I also have no illusion about who would be blamed, even if a smaller off leash dog came running right up and into his space and even if a smaller dog attacked him.

He'd win the fight, but lose the war.

So, we don't go places with off leash dogs. No dog parks. I keep him leashed whenever we are off our property, except at Schutzhund. When off leash dogs do come running up to us, I step between him and them and manage the interaction. I used to have to step between strange people wanting to interact with him, but as he's started filling out, that becomes less and less an issue.

At my Schutzhund club, only puppies are worked as a group and even there they are kept on leash and separated.

Melissa, it's funny the differences between dogs - Kasey has been attacked 3 times in his 7 years, to the point of broken skin and blood. Instead of it making him reactive to other dogs, it has made him indifferent, and sometimes even skiddish. I believe dogs sense that he is an easy target because he doesn't even look at them, just wants to keep walking, and they lash out at him. On walks I always go way out and around any and all dogs, even the seemingly most friendly, because he just seems to attract aggression. I feel like a parent who's child gets bullied, I just want to teach him to stand up for himself!! (Not that I really desire him to be in a dog fight).

My little chow-setter cross was real friendly with other dogs and I was only 13yrs old, so I let her run up to them saying she was friendly. All until she was attacked by a GSD 3x....she was not loose when it happened. the GSD came in OUR yard and attacked her.

She didn't become dog aggressive (except on a leash and towards the GSD) but would get real snappy when dogs got in her face and I no longer let her run up on them. She was my first dog and I learned real quick that I had to protect her and also concluded that letting her run up to other dogs was stupid.

That was good that you learned this early on .... especially at 13! Tough lesson, but a lasting one.

 Quote: Lori Hall

Kasey has been attacked 3 times in his 7 years, to the point of broken skin and blood...it has made him sometimes skiddish.

I believe dogs sense that he is an easy target...and they lash out at him.

On walks I always go way out and around any and all dogs...because he just seems to attract aggression.

I feel like a parent who's child gets bullied, I just want to teach him to stand up for himself!!

1. I'm not a professional trainer

2. I would like to share my amateur opinion

3. Avoidance & fear are his Self-Protective Reactions to having been repeatedly attacked & injured...

4. What I feel Aggressive Dogs are sensing is the fact that you are not being Pro-Active in Protecting your own dog from being Bullied -- It seems as if you are not taking the Leadership Position of standing between Kasey and Threats ... I would not allow Pushy Dogs to approach him, so I would drive them OFF with my body-language, My Voice, MY WALKING-STICK, etcetera...

5. "Teaching him to stand up for himself" would be Absolutely Wrong -- Dogs "stand up for themselves" by FIGHTING either Defensively or Offensively ... You do NOT want this, because it is Your Job to make sure that Kasey is Protected from getting into FIGHTS entirely.