Quote: Tammy Moore

Yeah, I hear about these remote locations in my area. All the people with aggressive dogs tell me they go there.

Well, I've been utilizing this particular area near my home at 5:AM & 9:PM every single day since 1993 (before my current Akita, I had a passive-submissive Borzoi) but we have Never encountered Any other dogs there, so go figure -- Two good friends of mine who are very active in the "Bad Rap" pitbull Rescue Group also solve this same problem by using a fenced Dog Park in their neighborhood at early & late off-hours as well ... One stands guard at the gate, while the other takes a dog inside for off-lead exercise, when no one else is there (in the event that somebody else wants to use the DP, they leave first, and this works fine for them too).

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

I think BAT may help, since you mention that her focus is on the other dog. If anything, you could just read over it and then decide 'nope, probably not' and continue with what you've been doing to manage her. Some dogs really are dog aggressive/reactive and cannot be trusted. That's okay, because that's the beauty of individuality. We love them for who they are, and not because we want robots with input-output.

Sam, Jodi, and anyone else that would like to weigh in on BAT;

I have read over the BAT steps for a reactive dog and I have an observation and a question...
It appears that these steps are very similar to the desensitizing work I've been doing at the club, with a few differences. The biggest difference I see, and the easiest to change, is the timing of the mark. I think I've got a pretty good grasp on how to implement it.

My question is, will the self-gratifying behaviors that she practices countermand the BAT protocol? It occurs to me that the good work would be undone by the barrier aggression she displays and the fence-fighting that she does when she is guarding the property. Should I expect a working guard dog to become completely non-reactive? I am certainly going to give this a shot, but I want my expectations to be reasonable.



NOTE: The BAT discussion moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/20/2013 01:49 PM)
Edit reason: Note added

I'm careful about where I exercise Logan, there's lots of loose ghetto dogs around here. There 2 school grounds I use often, I know what directions to watch for other people to come from. I make an exit before the loose dog catches sight of us...I am always aware of escape routes LOL Works pretty good.

Biking is the most dangerous, as its hard to keep loose dogs away. I stick to select streets, where the good dog owners live. When I see them out walking and they say hi, I make sure they know he isn't friendly, just well trained, just in case. I haven't had any issues there...accept a maltie-poo chased us once and almost got run over.

About BAT ....

This is JMO, and it has come up in the past on other BAT threads, so I'll just recap briefly (again, JMO!):

I don't want to reward for attention to the trigger. My own desensitizing work puts the trigger into the background, as unworthy of notice (as opposed to "dog looks and decides").

I think BAT is good for a wet-his-pants level of fear/phobia.

And I realize that people find success using BAT as a desensitizing tool.

For me, though, it's almost the inverse of my own protocol, which focuses the reactive dog on me and on activity with me while the trigger stays outside his area of reactivity (which gradually shrinks). The dog learns through this practice that the trigger can be ignored. (This is hugely over-simplified, of course.)

I understand that others have succeeded with BAT, but it violates one of the most important tenets of the protocol I use, which is "focus on me and not the trigger."

I don't want to reward for attention on the trigger. I don't want the trigger to assume any importance in our desensitizing work .... I want it to become boring background.

Again, all JMO!

Maybe I'm not reading it right...

I thought the mark was timed for when the dog took his attention AWAY from the trigger, and then the dog is whisked away (which seems to be the key to the whole thing; the moving away and then getting closer, rewarding when the dog is not focused on the trigger).

FWIW, the desensitizing I've done is Connie's method. I don't want this question to get buried, though:

 Quote: Duane Hull

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

I think BAT may help, since you mention that her focus is on the other dog. If anything, you could just read over it and then decide 'nope, probably not' and continue with what you've been doing to manage her. Some dogs really are dog aggressive/reactive and cannot be trusted. That's okay, because that's the beauty of individuality. We love them for who they are, and not because we want robots with input-output.

Sam, Jodi, and anyone else that would like to weigh in on BAT;

I have read over the BAT steps for a reactive dog and I have an observation and a question...
It appears that these steps are very similar to the desensitizing work I've been doing at the club, with a few differences. The biggest difference I see, and the easiest to change, is the timing of the mark. I think I've got a pretty good grasp on how to implement it.

My question is, will the self-gratifying behaviors that she practices countermand the BAT protocol? It occurs to me that the good work would be undone by the barrier aggression she displays and the fence-fighting that she does when she is guarding the property. Should I expect a working guard dog to become completely non-reactive? I am certainly going to give this a shot, but I want my expectations to be reasonable.

NOTE: Duane moved his BAT discussion to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184


Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/20/2013 01:48 PM)
Edit reason: NOTE added

NOTE: Duane's BAT discussion has moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184


http://functionalrewards.com/more/bat-steps-for-reactivity/
Every Stage starts with the dog looking at the trigger. "Walks, Stage 1", includes "Start off just by clicking the dog for noticing the trigger."

Also, from the .PDF:
Basic Steps for Problem Behaviors with BAT
1. Analyze to discover the functional reward of the problem behavior.
2. Expose to a subtle version of the trigger. Don’t go so close or make it so
challenging that the dog does the problem behavior, including panic or
aggression. Make it obvious what the dog should do, but not so easy that he’s
not making a choice at all. Breathing should be fairly calm.
3. Wait for good choices (ex. look at trigger, then look away or stop pulling on leash
or&hellip. If distress increases, abort the trial rather than letting the dog flounder.
4. Mark with a word or clicker.
5. Give access to a Functional Reward – fulfill the need that triggered the behavior
you are trying to change.
6. Optional Bonus Reward, like food or a toy, esp. on walks - distracts from trigger.

The steps focus around the dog looking at and then making his own choice about how to react to the trigger.

I prefer to give the trigger none of this power and attention.

ETA: Just my own feeling about it! Please carry on! I know that BAT works for others.


Anyway, back to Duane's question:

"My question is, will the self-gratifying behaviors that she practices countermand the BAT protocol? It occurs to me that the good work would be undone by the barrier aggression she displays and the fence-fighting that she does when she is guarding the property. Should I expect a working guard dog to become completely non-reactive? I am certainly going to give this a shot, but I want my expectations to be reasonable."



NOTE: Duane's BAT discussion has moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875#383184

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/20/2013 01:47 PM)
Edit reason: ETA NOTE

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

I'm careful about where I exercise Logan, there's lots of loose ghetto dogs around here. There 2 school grounds I use often, I know what directions to watch for other people to come from. I make an exit before the loose dog catches sight of us...I am always aware of escape routes LOL Works pretty good.

Biking is the most dangerous, as its hard to keep loose dogs away. I stick to select streets, where the good dog owners live. When I see them out walking and they say hi, I make sure they know he isn't friendly, just well trained, just in case. I haven't had any issues there...accept a maltie-poo chased us once and almost got run over.

I'm with you here, Tresa:

A cyclist & dog rushing past makes a Double Trigger for loose canines that go into Prey Drive -- Also, whenever it's necessary to take my dog-aggro Akita around other pets (at the Vet or Kennel for instance) I always pre-alert the office staff about my dog's temperament ... Shaka is well-trained & she will calmly/quietly hold a Down-Stay facing me in the presence of other beasties, but I often must personally Enforce my Warning to other owners NOT to let THEIR loosely leashed dogs attempt to engage her.

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/dogs-are-not-public-property

Thanks for the link Duane :-)

 Quote: Duane Hull

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/dogs-are-not-public-property

This happens to us ALL THE TIME!! Ugh