Question & Answers on Electric Collars

Leerburg Questions & Answers
on Electric Collars

Electric Collars

Remote Collar Training for the Pet Owner

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the Cinch-It Collar

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Ed Frawley's Philosophy of Dog Training

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Ed Frawley's Philosophy of Dog Training

The Theory Of Corrections in Dog Training

Basic Dog Training with Markers

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The Ground Work on Becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader

Theory of Motivation in Dog Training

Theory of Corrections in Dog Training

Ed Frawley's Philosophy of Dog Training

Who Can Pet My Puppy?

Training Puppies Not to Bite

Train Your Dog with Markers

Introducing Dogs into Homes with Other Dogs

The Ground Work to Becoming a Pack Leader - Part 1

Electronic Collars

Questions and Answers on Electric Collar Training:

I try and answer every question I receive on dog training. I may often come across a little on the blunt side, (some may call it brash). That is because I consider myself an advocate for dogs and not dog handlers. I am an advocate for common sense dog training and not the latest fad that appears on the horizon. Good dog training is not rocket science. It's common sense.

After using your Puppy Video and Basic Dog Obedience Video, we are still having trouble with the COME command with our 10 month old GSD. How do I get the recall response not to fail?
Can you tell me what method you use for electric collar training?
My dogs don't wear collars, but I want to start using an electric collar to further training. How do I get them used to the collar and which one would you recommend?

Basic Dog Obedience

QUESTION:

Dear Mr. Frawley,

We've enjoyed your Puppy video as well as Basic Obedience 302...and still need a little help with "Come." We live on 5 acres and our 10 month old male GSD is very responsive and obedient while on the leash, whether it's the 6 foot or 20 foot line. But once we take him off the lead and go inside and then outside later to call him in or call him to stop barking, etc., he ignores me. The property is too big to have him drag a line around in case we need to call him, so we let him off once we go inside. How do I get that conditioned recall response to not fail?

Thanks so much,

Evy Tinney

ANSWER:

It is time for an electric collar – I use the DOGTRA 1900 collars that we sell on my dogs. They have excellent range and are the best quality on the market. You can read about them on my web site.

The dog should wear the collar for two weeks. The important thing is the collar should be put on and taken off 4 or 5 times a day. The act of putting the collar on MUST MEAN NOTHING TO THE DOG. People think just letting a dog wear a collar for two weeks is all they need do. They are wrong. Dogs associate the collar going on with the shock when it's wrong.

Then the dog needs to be trained in a fenced in area when he is on the long line – the correct shock level is one that just causes his head to move a little (not scream or yelp).

When the dog is good in the yard he needs to have the collar on EVERY TIME YOU LET HIM OUTSIDE. Set up a place by the door for the collar to hang or be charged.

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Your Puppy
8 Weeks to 8 Months

QUESTION:

Ed,

Please do an e-collar video! Everything out there is crap. That said, I have a couple questions.

About a year ago, with the help of the training director at the local schutzhund club (I am in Chicago), I introduced my three year old dog to the e-collar using "escape training" in the manner consistent with the Dobbs/Tri Tronics Three Action Introduction -- apply continuous stimulation immediately before a command, and then shut off stimulation when dog complies (or for the here command, turns toward me). Then, once he learned how to turn off the stimulation and was working to quickly comply with commands, I switched to "avoidance training" -- he complies quickly and avoids stimulation altogether. Only if he clearly blows off the command or is slow to comply does the stimulation go back on. Depending on his level of distraction, I would then either give a nick (as an attention getter) or if really distracted, turn on the continuous at a level consistent with his distraction level. My understanding is that this training program is based on the theory of negative reinforcement -- the dog learns how to turn off the low level stimulation from the collar, and is not confused because through training he learns that he is in control of the stimulation and can shot it off by complying.

I have heard that escape training using continuous stimulation is no longer being recommended. I think Dobbs now (at least on their Dogtra tape that comes with some of the collars), is just giving a command and if the dog ignores, hitting the nick button. For example, here command given and dog does not comply, nick him, if he still ignores, nick again. I don't know if for a period of time to introduce the collar you would give automatic nicks after the command, and then phase out the automatic nicks and nick only for non-compliance. In such a program do you have to guide the dog showing it what to do when it feels the nick? Anyway, this method seems to me to just be punishment training, but I certainly could be misunderstanding.

Also, I saw in your article on the Down in Motion that you say to NICK, as opposed to turning on the continuous, if there is the slightest question on speed. Is that for a dog that was introduced to the collar using continuous? Or do you just give command and if slow you nick.

What e-collar method do you recommend for obedience work -- and by that I mean (1) for introducing the collar to the dog and making him "collar literate" (so he knows how to respond to the stimulation when he feels it) and (2) then for using it to correct when commands are ignored or followed too slowly?

Thanks so much Ed. Your videos, products, articles, discussion forum, etc... are unmatched resources.

Adam

ANSWER:

In 2005, after using an electric collar for 20 years I produced a DVD titled Electric Collar Training for the Pet Owner. It's a 2 3/4 hour DVD that explains a humane method of using low level stimulation to train dogs with a electric collar. At no time in my DVD do I use high level stimulation on the dogs being trained. In fact I never go higher than the mid-range stimulation on some dogs that "need to be learn a little more respect for the handlers commands".

I don't believe in escape training and this is not what I teach in my training DVD. The method I use is to focus my training on teaching the dog to respect a voice command of NO - if the dog refuses a command that it knows I always tell it NO before I stimulate the dog. I am very consistent in this. This method is black and white to the dog.

My method takes a little longer to train but in the end the dog and handler have a much better bond and the work is very clear to the dog.

I was never a fan of escape training. Bottom line is that its punishment training and in my opinion the worst form of it. Don't get me wrong, escape training works. It is a QUICK way to train a dog but in my opinion it is unfair to the dog. The trainer stimulates the dog before it's given a chance to respond to a command. Escape training does not build the bond between the dog and handler - in my opinion it breaks down the bond.

Professional dog trainers use escape training because its fast and to them TIME IS MONEY.

The collar is nothing more than an invisible leash. It needs to be used exactly like a leash correction is used. I don’t know what people want to call this - but I call it the proper way to train a dog.

The most important thing about electric collar training is how the collar is introduced to the dog. The physical act of putting the collar on cannot mean anything to the dog. People make the mistake and think that wearing the collar accustoms the dog to the collar. These people are wrong.

It’s the act of putting the collar on that means something. So new trainers need to take a couple of weeks and put the collar on and take it off several times a day. They need to rotate the prong collar and the electric collar and the leather collar during this period of time. By doing this the collar going on and off means nothing to the dog.

When the buttons are pushed is no different than when a person gives a leash correction. There is an art to using the leash and there is an art to using the electric collar. Thanks for writing.

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Mr. Frawley,
After ordering a dominant dog collar and video your staff suggested I email you for your thoughts on my situation. I have an 11 mos old intact male german shepherd that is showing aggression to me, other dogs and to my livestock. He always barked at the horses,cows, chickens, etc. as a pup. I just continued to expose him and correct him as he grew. The barking and recall got better but recently he tried to attack another dog and has begun to chase/bite the livestock and has bitten me in the thigh.
He has been e collar trained since 7 mos by a canine police officer/trainer. He was doing well at first. I began to question the training as the dog was becoming more aggressive with the stim. He has always been a very verbal and "mouthy" dog. I was told he would grow out of it. But the e collar seemed to make matters worse. I ordered your video and realized he was training the " learn how to shut off the stim" way. I quit the trainer and began the Leerburg way and the dog was much better. He still would snap at me with or without the collar but never bit. This back talk was always corrected with a NO and a leash pop. In your video you talked about aggression towards other dogs and using the collar at the high setting. I tried this and I got bit in the thigh. I have a dogtra 200ncp gold. I know there is something I am doing wrong....
I have also tried to hold him up and lift his front feet off the ground but he just stands up on his hind and goes for my hands. Normal training was at the 30 setting and for the aggression I tried it at 80. My trainer had at times used settings anywhere from 20 - 60. I live in a rural area and there aren't too many trainers around let alone good ones. Can you offer any advice? I would be grateful.....

Ed's Reply:

It is always far more difficult to correct problems brought on by bad training than to do it right the first time. I am not saying this as a jab at you - it's a simple fact.

If I had a concern about this I would probably have the dog start to wear a wire basket muzzle every day. It sounds like you have more than a simple barking and chasing problem going on here - it sounds like it's a pack structure problem - rank problem. In addition to the fact that this is a terrible age for a male dog.

I wrote a free eBook title THE GORUND WORK TO BECOMEINE A PACK LEADER - do this work. Control every second of this dogs life. His free time needs to end for a long time. You need to be using a crate or a dog kennel. Every time he comes out he gets the muzzle on and the remote collar on.

Take the time to learn marker training - I wrote an article on it and have a free podcast on it. Use markers to train the muzzle going on and the collar going on so its not a fight. Your obedience training needs to be done with markers too.

When the dog is outside (for awhile) it needs to be on the remote and a long line (like the 20 foot cotton lines we sell)

Chains animals and being aggressive to other dogs requires the highest stimulation your collar allows. - we start at the highest setting with continuous stimulation until the dog is in complete avoidance.

This is not something that is really a training exercise as much as a learning exercise. I compare it to a horse or cow touching and electric fence. We don't start low and go high with cows, they learn that trying to go through fences is a bad thing. In your case there is a difference between using the collar to mould a behavior and teaching the dog that there are land mines around our livestock. These high level corrections require NO VERBAL correction from you. Just as the electric fence requires no verbal corrections. These are just something in life the dog learns - kind of like not touching a hot stove.

Let me also tell you something about most police K9 officers. They are fare better handlers than they are trainers. In my career I have only met a handful of really good trainers that were K9 officers. If I had to guess I would say less than 5% are trainers.

Kind Regards,
Ed Frawley

Question:

Hello,

I am sure you are very busy and may be hateful and condescending to me because I haven't devoted my life to dog training, but I feel that I owe it to my dog to contact you. I have a 2 1/2 year old doberman. I also have a 6 year old toy poodle. They get along very well and I couldn't have asked for better pets. My husband and I did a lot of research before buying our doberman, Ti, and knew that it was going to take work to make him a happy pet. We trained him on our own, which proved to be quite the challenge. He accomplished all the commands presented to him except come. At this point we invested in a electronic collar. Problem solved!! He was the perfect pet ......until our neighbors (that we have connecting fences) got a puppy. He is still pretty great, but I would rather not have to deal with this behavior. After about 2 weeks of the puppy being around, Ti bit his toe through the fence. I thought that it was unacceptable behavior, but my husband reminded me in all the books that we read about dobermans that they were bred for protection purposes and that it was his instincts. I accepted that and just put up a fence so that our dog could not get to their's. As their puppy got older (about 5 months), both dogs would run up and down the fence aggressively barking at each other. The neighbor approached me about trying to get them together outside the fence. I told her that I didn't think it was a good idea. She convinced me that she understood if something happened that her dog would be hurt and her vet told her that it could be the fence between them promoting the aggression. Well I told her that I would be willing to try it. Big mistake .......I know that now. Ti bit her dog and he had to get stitches. Yes, I know I was STUPID. Since then, I gave her fencing to put up on her side of the fence also. Of course they didn't put it up on their side. This last week they were fighting at the other end of the fence and Ti tried to pull his leg through the fence. I ran outside and told him to stop and he let go of the dog. Our neighbors called animal control and they came out. Come to find out she called animal control the first time also. We have fixed our fence now so that their dog can't get through in any place. They have done nothing and every time I open my back door their dog comes running and barking at the fence. I have been working with Ti using the shock collar and on a leash by the fence and correcting him when his attention goes to the fence. He is fine with the shock collar on and getting better now without any correction, but can we truly hope to solve this problem with the neighbors dog antagonizing him on the other side of the fence? Will we ever get the control that we have on him using the e-collar without using the e-collar? Any techniques that you would suggest that we use? Your comments and opinions would be helpful and greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jessica

Answer:

I am not sure why you thought you would get a “hateful and condescending” reply. That’s rather insulting and not a great way to start and email where you are asking for advice. In spite of your remarks, I will answer you anyway, for the sake of your dog.

If you are getting good results with the ecollar on, why would you want to try taking it off? Without the collar on, you have no means of communicating with the dog. Every day your dog should put the collar on, just like you putting on a watch in the morning. It should be part of his routine.

With issues like this I always recommend that people train their dog with a remote collar.

We produced a training DVD in the fall of 2005 titled ELECTRIC COLLAR TRAINING FOR THE PET OWNER. In this DVD Ed teaches people how to handle the foundation training and then how to use the collar.

Many trainers, especially hunting dog trainers and even some professional dog trainers use “escape training” when they train with remote collars. This is where they stimulate the dog, give it a command and then teach the dog how to turn the stimulation OFF by doing what’s told.

I don’t agree with “escape training.” I don’t think its fair to the dog. He is being stimulated before he is even asked to do something. In my opinion this is ass end backward.

Rather I believe in using the collar to reinforce a voice correction. In other words, I always tell my dog “NO” before I correct him. I give him the opportunity to change his behavior. My goal is to always teach my dog to follow my voice command.

If you read the article titled THE THEORY OF CORRECTIONS IN DOG TRAINING you will understand how to approach corrections. In the DVD Ed simply applies that philosophy to remote collar training.

The article explains how to determine the level of correction to use on each dog. This varies according to the temperament and drive of the dog along with the level of distraction it’s currently facing at that moment in time.

This DVD shows how to determine what level of stimulation to use on your dog. That’s important.

In this DVD we never used a level higher than a medium and most of the time it was on the low settings for every dog we trained.

We use a Dogtra 1900 on our personal dogs. This is about a $300.00 (plus shipping) collar.

There are other good collars for less money. I recommend staying with DOGTRA, INNOTEK and TRI-TRONICS. Other companies sell cheaper collars but in the remote collar business you get what you pay for.

I hope this helps.

Apology:

Thank you for your time. I started the e-mail off like that because I have read your site and most of the replies to those questions were pretty rough. You were very pleasant and I apologize.

Thanks again,
Jessica

Question:

I have 3 standard poodles, they are well bred and all conformation Ch, and currently working on obedience titles.. The late neutered male barks a great deal when outside. Mostly at things on the other side of the fence. I want to buy a training collar and wondered what you would suggest for barking and training. Is there one that will do both?

Jan

Answer:

For training issues, we recommend electric collars.

When people hear ELECTRIC COLLAR they always quiver and shake because there has been such bad publicity on these training collars.

The fact is today’s collars are 1000 times better than those I bought 25 years ago.

We produced a training DVD in the fall of 2005 titled ELECTRIC COLLAR TRAINING FOR THE PET OWNER. In this DVD Ed teaches people how to handle the foundation training and then how to use the collar.

I don’t agree with “escape training.” I don’t think its fair to the dog. He is being stimulated before he is even asked to do something. In my opinion this is ass end backward.

If you read the article titled THE THEORY OF CORRECTIONS IN DOG TRAINING, you will understand how to approach corrections. In the DVD Ed simply applies that philosophy to remote collar training.

This DVD shows how to determine what level of stimulation to use on your dog. That’s important.

In this DVD we never used a level higher than a medium and most of the time it was on the low settings for every dog we trained.

We use a Dogtra 1900 on our personal dogs. This is about a $300.00 (plus shipping).

There are other good collars for less money. I recommend staying with DOGTRA, INNOTEK and TRI-TRONICS. Other companies sell cheaper collars but in the remote collar business you get what you pay for.

For barking issues, unless your timing is perfect we recommend the NO bark collar from Tri Tronics. You can find information on No Bark Collars on my web site. I use them in my kennel every day. We put them on at night and take them off in the morning. I could not run my kennel without them There are a number of poor quality no bark collars on the market – most are not worth the shipping charges to get them mailed to you. I like the Tri Tronics collars.

I hope this helps.

Question:

First let me say your website is fantastic!

I have a two year old rott that is a "hard dog" he has a electric fence which he respects greatly, but I got him a petsafe collar electric collar for better control as in obedience etc, when you correct him he tries to bite you. The warning tone sort of works, as it reminds him of the electric fence. But I found out after purchasing this thing the petsafe collar only delivers a mild tickle when applied, which he simply ignores.
I am looking to upgrade to the dogtra collar, but I dont want just a tickle. I want something that will stop him in his tracks. I try and walk him on the bike path and if someone else/dog is on the path, I almost have to tie him to a tree to control him. Be aware that I have had big rotts, dobes all my life, but this is the first dog I have had which such a hard prey drive who simply doesnt want his behavior corrected when he sees a quarry. The rest of the time he is the most loving dog around.

If you could answer this, please let me know thanks,
Richard

Answer:

Richard

I use a Dogtra 1900 on my personal dog. If there was a better collar on the market I would use it.

With this said I strongly recommend that you also get the DVD I did titled Remote Collar Training for the Pet Owner.

There are times that high level stimulation is required but once you learn to train with low level you will find that the number of times that a higher level is needed goes away.

Also if your dog tried to bite you when you train you need to be using a muzzle - we have the wire basket muzzled made for Rots.

When a dog tried to bite the handler (for any reason) there is a pack structure issue. Lower ranking pack members don't try and bite the pack leader. In my life I have trained more seriously dangerous dogs than I can remember - I don't mean dogs that would just bite because they were redirected into aggression I mean dogs that had taken body parts off others. My most recent DVD outlines the pack structure program I run dogs through to establish pack structure. You may want to get this.

Good luck

Question:

Hi Ed and Cindy:

I have two dogs, a 40 lbs. Chow mix and a 35 lbs. Border Collie mix. I wish to take their training (obedience even around distractions) to the next level. I have never used an e-collar before and have a couple of questions:

My dogs are used to wearing a dog harness as their only leash attachment device (not a sled pulling harness or “no pull” harness, just a simple harness like pet stores sell). They have never worn a simple collar. I’m concerned that conditioning them to the e-collar will not go as well since they will easily detect the difference between the e-collar and their harness during the “switch the collars out” exercise that takes place several times a day during the e-collar acclimation phase. Any advice???
I would prefer a 2-dog e-collar system so I can work both dogs simultaneously. I’m thinking about the Dogtra 1702NCP because I definitely want the LCD feature…Which trainer would you recommend?

Thank you for your time and effort in replying to this email!!

Marty

Answer:

Just start putting the ecollar on them every morning, like you or I would put on a wristwatch. Don’t make any big deal about it, just make it a part of their new routine.

For smaller dogs like yours, the 1900 may be a bit large for them. The box on the collar is pretty big. I use a 200 NCP Gold on my Malinois, it’s a nice small size but it doesn’t have a digital read out. Either one would work; I just would think the smaller collar would be best for your dogs, especially since your dogs aren’t use to collars of any kind.

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